Misquote in the Gospel

[Oeste]

Jesus likened death to sleep--the dead are in Gods memory--every one of them.
The lake of fire( destruction) is the 2nd death( permanent)

Yes, Jesus likened death to sleeping because this is how the dead appear to those still living, I don't think anyone doubts this.

But you still haven't explained how something that has ceased to exist can be unconscious, why they infer Jesus had previously lied by changing the comma placement at Luke 23:43, why your Organization places a period at Ecclesiastes 9:5 where God has placed a comma, nor why you believe it sane to believe them but insane to believe anything else.

Let's start with the first one then. Can you tell us of anything that has ceased to exist that is now unconscious?

Perhaps you can point to something that never existed that is now unconscious as an example?

Obviously, if something that never existed can be unconscious then we know that something that ceases to exist can be unconscious also, and this would go a long way toward proving the validity of the two mutually exclusive assertions quoted in the Watchtower articles above.

 

[kjw47]

Yes, Jesus likened death to sleeping because this is how the dead appear to those still living, I don't think anyone doubts this.

But you still haven't explained how something that has ceased to exist can be unconscious, why they infer Jesus had previously lied by changing the comma placement at Luke 23:43, why your Organization places a period at Ecclesiastes 9:5 where God has placed a comma, nor why you believe it sane to believe them but insane to believe anything else.

Let's start with the first one then. Can you tell us of anything that has ceased to exist that is now unconscious?

Perhaps you can point to something that never existed that is now unconscious as an example?

Obviously, if something that never existed can be unconscious then we know that something that ceases to exist can be unconscious also, and this would go a long way toward proving the validity of the two mutually exclusive assertions quoted in the Watchtower articles above.

The bible says---on the day of ones death--ALL thought stops.

 

[Oeste]

The bible says---on the day of ones death--ALL thought stops.

All thought would certainly have to stop in order to believe we can cease to exist and be unconscious. It just doesn't make any sense.

Look, your Organization claims "The dead know nothing at all." puts a non-existant period after "all", and then cites Ecclesiastes 9:5. Your literature repeats and overemphasizes it so much that every Jehovah Witness on the planet runs it off in their head.

But when I ask them what else Ecclesiastestes 9:5 says, all I get is a blank stare, because they've been trained to stop at a period that doesn't exist in scripture.

I could just as easily build a theology around the idea that all memory of the dead is forgotten, and that once you're dead you have no reward:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiates 9:5 NWT​

In other words, "The dead know nothing at all" is no more or less truer than "All memory of them is forgotten" in the above verse. But we all know plenty of dead people that we haven't forgotten at all.

Yes, the bible speaks truth, but Ecclesiastes 9:5 speaks about those who have a carnal/worldly (those who only live "under the sun" see Eccl 9:2-3), and not a righteous/spiritual view of death.

God has given you all the equipment you need to understand his word. Try a read on your own, without the literature. You'll find it completely logical and consistent in ways you never did before.

 

[Thief]

I particularly like this misquote from the gospel
it regards John the Baptist

Luke 3:4
"As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
'A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him''.

So the gospel scholars make a strong distinction that it was John proclaiming 'in the desert' then quotes.
Here is the actual Isaiah quote.....
Isaiah 40:3
"A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the Lord;
make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"

As you can see, they misquoted between 'in the desert' and 'prepare the way of our Lord'.
they moved the break of exclamation

So it is not, a voice of one calling in the desert: 'prepare the way'

it is, a voice of one calling: 'in the desert prepare the way'
the prophet wasn't in the desert, the highway of the Lord was.

I don't know why they haven't fixed that typo after all these years?

I always thought it was......one from the desert calling 'make straight the way of the Lord'

that would be John.....as herald
asking those who have ears that hear.....
to prepare and show a proper reception for the Lord

 

[kjw47]

All thought would certainly have to stop in order to believe we can cease to exist and be unconscious. It just doesn't make any sense.

Look, your Organization claims "The dead know nothing at all." puts a non-existant period after "all", and then cites Ecclesiastes 9:5. Your literature repeats and overemphasizes it so much that every Jehovah Witness on the planet runs it off in their head.

But when I ask them what else Ecclesiastestes 9:5 says, all I get is a blank stare, because they've been trained to stop at a period that doesn't exist in scripture.

I could just as easily build a theology around the idea that all memory of the dead is forgotten, and that once you're dead you have no reward:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiates 9:5 NWT​

In other words, "The dead know nothing at all" is no more or less truer than "All memory of them is forgotten" in the above verse. But we all know plenty of dead people that we haven't forgotten at all.

Yes, the bible speaks truth, but Ecclesiastes 9:5 speaks about those who have a carnal/worldly (those who only live "under the sun" see Eccl 9:2-3), and not a righteous/spiritual view of death.

God has given you all the equipment you need to understand his word. Try a read on your own, without the literature. You'll find it completely logical and consistent in ways you never did before.

I know my teachers are correct--its 100% fact--there is no trinity god in existence--they have it all wrong--from the councils of Catholicism on up until today--false teachings abound in the trinity based religions. They live or die by Catholicism translating.

 

[Oeste]

I know my teachers are correct--its 100% fact--there is no trinity god in existence--they have it all wrong--from the councils of Catholicism on up until today--false teachings abound in the trinity based religions. They live or die by Catholicism translating.

Trinity???

Weren't we discussing what occurs after death, or is this issue settled?

 

[kjw47]

I know my teachers are correct--its 100% fact--there is no trinity god in existence--they have it all wrong--from the councils of Catholicism on up until today--false teachings abound in the trinity based religions. They live or die by Catholicism translating.

They most likely used the term--unconscience-- because these will be resurrected--so they aren't in the full death as of yet. The lake of fire is the full death.

 

[Oeste]

They most likely used the term--unconscience-- because these will be resurrected

What does unconsciousness have to do with being resurrected? Unconscious simply means you are unaware, not that you will be resurrected, and if you've ceased to exist, you can't possibly be unaware. You have to exist to be either aware or unaware.

--so they aren't in the full death as of yet.

Full death? Are those unconscious in partial death?

The lake of fire is the full death.

So when the living die they "cease to exist" but now they're only partially dead? What scripture are you using to support this? Also, are the dead partially unconscious now, and become fully unconscious after the lake of fire?

 

[kjw47]

What does unconsciousness have to do with being resurrected? Unconscious simply means you are unaware, not that you will be resurrected, and if you've ceased to exist, you can't possibly be unaware. You have to exist to be either aware or unaware.



Full death? Are those unconscious in partial death?



So when the living die they "cease to exist" but now they're only partially dead? What scripture are you using to support this? Also, are the dead partially unconscious now, and become fully unconscious after the lake of fire?

No they are dead, just not--the 2nd death is( permanent)

 

[Oeste]

No they are dead, just not--the 2nd death is( permanent)

So the dead who are just not dead are thrown into the lake of fire? How can they be dead and just not? And what is the point of throwing someone who has "ceased to exist" into a lake? It just seems to me there wouldn't be much to throw.

 

[kjw47]

So the dead who are just not dead are thrown into the lake of fire? How can they be dead and just not? And what is the point of throwing someone who has "ceased to exist" into a lake? It just seems to me there wouldn't be much to throw.

After Har-mageddon there will be a resurrection of dead loved ones to the earth. Many will get the opportunity to learn Gods will and apply( while no satan influences are there for the thousand years)--

 

[Oeste]

After Har-mageddon there will be a resurrection of dead loved ones to the earth. Many will get the opportunity to learn Gods will and apply( while no satan influences are there for the thousand years)--

All Christians look forward to the resurrection, but now you say
these unconscious people that don't exist are resurrected?

Thanks kjw, but with all due respect, I think your teachers in Brooklyn need to work on their soul sleep doctrine a bit more.

 

[kjw47]

All Christians look forward to the resurrection, but now you say
these unconscious people that don't exist are resurrected?

Thanks kjw, but with all due respect, I think your teachers in Brooklyn need to work on their soul sleep doctrine a bit more.

There is nothing to work on for them--They are correct.
Someone has to be correct or this wouldn't be possible-Dan 12:4--or this--John 4:22-24-- it has come to pass here in these last days. No one else has time to make corrections to truth now--Gods kingdom is at hand.

 

[Oeste]

There is nothing to work on for them--They are correct.

Great! So you won't mind correctly explaining to the readers of this forum how something that doesn't exist is unconscious.

Someone has to be correct or this wouldn't be possible-Dan 12:4--or this--John 4:22-24-- it has come to pass here in these last days.

Our hearts and minds must be correct kjw, not our doctrines.

The Samaritan women believed you needed to worship at Mount Gerizim. The Jews believed it was Jerusalem and you believe it's your organization. But Jesus dispelled that kind of talk when he stated the Father seeks those who worship him in spirit and truth.

No one else has time to make corrections to truth now--Gods kingdom is at hand.

What a strange statement!

Your organization admits it has no time to make "corrections" to truth! Why would anyone need to make corrections to truth in the first place? It's the untruths that need correction, not truths.

Look, if I told you I went to the store yesterday I would never need to correct my story if I'm telling you the truth. I may elaborate on it, but there is no need to "make corrections".

On the other hand, if I tell you I went to the store when I was actually out playing poker, then yes, this is a story in need of correction. But correcting the story later doesn't make my past lie a "former truth".

Remember Isaiah 5:20:

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."​

It is nonsensical to call something that was never true a "former truth". It's senseless to correct a truth since truth needs no "correction".

"Truths" that are untrue simply aren't true, and one needs to actually exist to be unconscious.

 

[kjw47]

Great! So you won't mind correctly explaining to the readers of this forum how something that doesn't exist is unconscious.



Our hearts and minds must be correct kjw, not our doctrines.

The Samaritan women believed you needed to worship at Mount Gerizim. The Jews believed it was Jerusalem and you believe it's your organization. But Jesus dispelled that kind of talk when he stated the Father seeks those who worship him in spirit and truth.



What a strange statement!

Your organization admits it has no time to make "corrections" to truth! Why would anyone need to make corrections to truth in the first place? It's the untruths that need correction, not truths.

Look, if I told you I went to the store yesterday I would never need to correct my story if I'm telling you the truth. I may elaborate on it, but there is no need to "make corrections".

On the other hand, if I tell you I went to the store when I was actually out playing poker, then yes, this is a story in need of correction. But correcting the story later doesn't make my past lie a "former truth".

Remember Isaiah 5:20:

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."​

It is nonsensical to call something that was never true a "former truth". It's senseless to correct a truth since truth needs no "correction".

"Truths" that are untrue simply aren't true, and one needs to actually exist to be unconscious.

Gods view differs from yours--John 4:22-24--how can one serve God the way he wills if their doctrine is not truth? How can true believers become -one- with God and his son if they teach errors?
Most likely did not mean--unconscience in the literal sense.

Trinity translations are filled with errors. Its all the JW teachers had the first 80 years.

 

[Oeste]

Gods view differs from yours--John 4:22-24

Really?

Then tell us, where outside your organization people worship with "spirit and truth".

The Samaritan woman thought it couldn't be done outside Mount Gerizim, the Jews outside Jerusalem. So I would love for you to cite the Watchtower article that points outside a Kingdom Hall.

how can one serve God the way he wills if their doctrine is not truth?

Your assertion makes no sense. Don't you claim that Jesus inspected and approved your organization in 1919 when it had major errors in doctrine? How does Jesus approve what God disapproves?

How can true believers become -one- with God and his son if they teach errors?

Good question. How did you answer it?

Most likely did not mean--unconscience in the literal sense.

So those who don't exist are unconscious in a figurative sense??? Harvey was a 1954 story about a six-foot white rabbit which didn't exist. Do you believe the rabbit figuratively unconscious, literally unconscious, symbolically unconscious, or is there some other form of unconscious we're not aware of?

BTW, while you're researching this, any documentation that supports your theory that the Watchtower "did not mean unconscious in the literal sense" would be appreciated.

Trinity translations are filled with errors. Its all the JW teachers had the first 80 years.

What on earth does the Trinity have to do with your Organization's errors? Were the translators guiding your ministry school at the time? Did the "Trinity translators" tell you that 1914 would spark Armageddon? Perhaps they claimed the "ancient worthies" would be resurrected in 1925? Or maybe that there were just a few months left before Armageddon in 1940?

Also, since you previously stated one cannot be one with God and his son if they have incorrect doctrine, do you also believe that God did not approve Kingdom Hall worship for the first 80 years?

If so, how could Jesus have possibly approved your organization in 1919?

 

[kjw47]

Really?

Then tell us, where outside your organization people worship with "spirit and truth".

The Samaritan woman thought it couldn't be done outside Mount Gerizim, the Jews outside Jerusalem. So I would love for you to cite the Watchtower article that points outside a Kingdom Hall.




Your assertion makes no sense. Don't you claim that Jesus inspected and approved your organization in 1919 when it had major errors in doctrine? How does Jesus approve what God disapproves?



Good question. How did you answer it?




So those who don't exist are unconscious in a figurative sense??? Harvey was a 1954 story about a six-foot white rabbit which didn't exist. Do you believe the rabbit figuratively unconscious, literally unconscious, symbolically unconscious, or is there some other form of unconscious we're not aware of?

BTW, while you're researching this, any documentation that supports your theory that the Watchtower "did not mean unconscious in the literal sense" would be appreciated.



What on earth does the Trinity have to do with your Organization's errors? Were the translators guiding your ministry school at the time? Did the "Trinity translators" tell you that 1914 would spark Armageddon? Perhaps they claimed the "ancient worthies" would be resurrected in 1925? Or maybe that there were just a few months left before Armageddon in 1940?

Also, since you previously stated one cannot be one with God and his son if they have incorrect doctrine, do you also believe that God did not approve Kingdom Hall worship for the first 80 years?

If so, how could Jesus have possibly approved your organization in 1919?

Because it was foretold by Jesus that truth would be revealed through his faithful and discreet slave--AT THE PROPER TIME--- that means, when God wills a truth known. So in 1919 they were on schedule. God approved as long as corrections kept being made. Its the same as repenting--that is what God requires of one.
It was not an easy task to undo 1750 years of false teachings, especially the first 80 years, they only had error filled translations to use.

 

[Oeste]

Because it was foretold by Jesus that truth would be revealed through his faithful and discreet slave--AT THE PROPER TIME--- that means, when God wills a truth known.

Now you really have me confused.

Are you claiming the 1925 resurrection was a truth Jesus revealed to your organization at the proper time? Or was this a truth your organization revealed at an improper time?

It just seems to me that if your organization goes around revealing Jesus spoken truths at improper times they are not revealing them AT THE PROPER TIME! Which of course means they can't possibly be the faithful and discreet slave.

Am I wrong in this? If so, please explain how.

So in 1919 they were on schedule.

So Jesus gave them the nod in 1919 to reveal the untruth about 1925? Or did they go beyond what is written, and decide to deviate from what Jesus actually taught them?

God approved as long as corrections kept being made.

We've talked about this before kjw. Truth doesn't need "correction" Lies on the other hand do.

Am I wrong in this? If so, please explain how.

Its the same as repenting--that is what God requires of one.

So when 1925 came and went, did the faithful slave faithfully repent to their members as God requires? If so, can you point us to the article?

It was not an easy task to undo 1750 years of false teachings, especially the first 80 years, they only had error filled translations to use.

You're confusing me again kjw.

1914, 1925, 1940, and 1975 (just to name a few) were not teachings of "Christendom" over the past 1750 years. They were teachings of your organization during the past 150 years!

Why are you blaming Christendom for your organization's teachings?

I've searched for these alleged "error-filled" translations kjw, but couldn't find a single one that had 1914, 1925, 1940 or any of the dates your organization preached as Jesus approved, personally inspected "truth".

Look, I could be wrong on this. There were a lot of bibles printed in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I'm sure there were a few that gave 1914 as Armageddon,1925 as resurrection day, and 1940 as the year of Armageddon again. As such, we can all look forward to the citations you'll include at your very next post.

Otherwise, I think it'll be pretty evident you've been leading me along and/or perhaps given to wildly unsubstantiated assertions. At that point, we can let the readers judge for themselves the merits of truth within your Organization's teachings.

 

[omega2xx]

Now you really have me confused.

Are you claiming the 1925 resurrection was a truth Jesus revealed to your organization at the proper time? Or was this a truth your organization revealed at an improper time?

It just seems to me that if your organization goes around revealing Jesus spoken truths at improper times they are not revealing them AT THE PROPER TIME! Which of course means they can't possibly be the faithful and discreet slave.

Am I wrong in this? If so, please explain how.

So Jesus gave them the nod in 1919 to reveal the untruth about 1925? Or did they go beyond what is written, and decide to deviate from what Jesus actually taught them?



We've talked about this before kjw. Truth doesn't need "correction" Lies on the other hand do.

Am I wrong in this? If so, please explain how.



So when 1925 came and went, did the faithful slave faithfully repent to their members as God requires? If so, can you point us to the article?



You're confusing me again kjw.

1914, 1925, 1940, and 1975 (just to name a few) were not teachings of "Christendom" over the past 1750 years. They were teachings of your organization during the past 150 years!

Why are you blaming Christendom for your organization's teachings?

I've searched for these alleged "error-filled" translations kjw, but couldn't find a single one that had 1914, 1925, 1940 or any of the dates your organization preached as Jesus approved, personally inspected "truth".

Look, I could be wrong on this. There were a lot of bibles printed in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I'm sure there were a few that gave 1914 as Armageddon,1925 as resurrection day, and 1940 as the year of Armageddon again. As such, we can all look forward to the citations you'll include at your very next post.

Otherwise, I think it'll be pretty evident you've been leading me along and/or perhaps given to wildly unsubstantiated assertions. At that point, we can let the readers judge for themselves the merits of truth within your Organization's teachings.

The JW's do not have a Bib le. That have a translation made by 4 men. 3 only had a high school education and did not know Greek or Hebrew. One did know a little Hebrew, but he not an expert in then language, therefore no qualified to do Bible translation.

All they did was to take a KJ and edit it to fit their theology. We can't expect them to know the truth.

 

[rusra02]

I particularly like this misquote from the gospel
it regards John the Baptist

Luke 3:4
"As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
'A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him''.

So the gospel scholars make a strong distinction that it was John proclaiming 'in the desert' then quotes.
Here is the actual Isaiah quote.....
Isaiah 40:3
"A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the Lord;
make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"

As you can see, they misquoted between 'in the desert' and 'prepare the way of our Lord'.
they moved the break of exclamation

So it is not, a voice of one calling in the desert: 'prepare the way'

it is, a voice of one calling: 'in the desert prepare the way'
the prophet wasn't in the desert, the highway of the Lord was.

I don't know why they haven't fixed that typo after all these years?

I suspect that Hebrew, like Greek, does not have punctuation marks. If so, it is up to the translator to determine how to punctuate the translated text. Isaiah 40:3 is rendered this way in the NWT: "A voice of one calling out in the wilderness:“Clear up the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God." The KJV reads similarly.