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Misinterpreting our experiences?

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I came across this site - searching for an epitaph for mankind actually. :rolleyes: And quote some comments relating to ESP.

Head Truth: How Evidence for ESP Undermines the “Minds Come From Brains” Dogma

I will give an example of anecdotal evidence for ESP that I can personally testify to. Years ago I was at the Queens Zoo in New York City with my two daughters when they were teenagers. We were looking at a feline animal called a puma, which we could see distantly, far behind a plastic barrier. Suddenly (oddly enough) I had a recollection of a zoo visit I had about eight or ten years previously, when I saw a gorilla just behind a plastic barrier, at the zoo at Busch Gardens in Florida. About three seconds later (before I said anything), my younger daughter said, “Do you remember that gorilla we saw close-up in Busch Gardens?” I was flabbergasted. It was as if there was telepathy going on. The incident seems all the more amazing when you consider that teenagers live very much in the present or the near future, and virtually never talk about things that happened 8 years ago. There was nothing in our field of view that might have caused both of us to have that recollection at the same time. On that zoo visit we hadn't seen a gorilla, nor had we seen any animal near a plastic barrier. When we moved to the next zoo exhibit, just for laughs I asked my older daughter whether perchance she also was thinking of that gorilla we saw about 8 or 10 years ago, before anyone mentioned the gorilla. My jaw dropped when she reported: yes, she also was thinking of that gorilla we saw about eight or ten years ago in Busch Gardens, before anyone had said anything about it. So apparently before anyone said anything, we had three out of three people all recalling the same very distant memory – a memory of seeing a gorilla about eight or ten years ago. How do you explain such a thing without a hypothesis of something like ESP?

Is it me being stupid here or the writer? Why did he think that his daughters would not be triggered in the very same way that he was? They had memories of the earlier encounter (no doubt different but sharing a commonality) - and probably associated with a zoo, animals obviously, and the plastic barrier. To think ESP was necessarily involved seems to be a step too far and perhaps typical of those who would rather put their own (often biased) interpretation on events rather than looking for an easier and obvious explanation.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted his description, but I think we all too often will share the same thoughts and feelings after some particular event - even reacting in much the same way - so no mystical explanation is necessary.

Any thoughts? From those who support ESP and those, like myself, who tend to be more sceptical.

PS This person is obviously intelligent (from much of the content on the site), but he seems to have some strange views. :oops:
 

PureX

Veteran Member
When I used to ride public transportation in Chicago, I'd experiment with "ESP". It was simple enough. I would just pick someone out who was not facing me in the crown, and look at them for 5 seconds or so, and see how many of them would "sense" that they were being watched, and turn around. And I was surprised how many of them did turn around. Not half, but a lot, like maybe a quarter of them. And this is in a loud, busy, very distracting environment. I also noticed that it didn't work if I "tried" hard (willed) to make them notice me. It worked better when I just chose and looked at them casually. And it even worked when I would be on a bus of train and the "subject" was on the sidewalk of platform, walking away from me.

Not "scientific", I know, but I used to do this often, and it always surprised me how often the people I was looking at would sense being looked at and turn around to see who's watching them. The world and ourselves are still full of mystery. And we would be fools to assume that we know so much that we can dismiss whole areas of speculation. Unfortunately we humans survive and thrive by knowing the mechanics of our environment, and so we become uncomfortable with the idea of the unknown or unknowable. And that drives us to presume that we can or do know it all, when we do not.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
When I used to ride public transportation in Chicago, I'd experiment with "ESP". It was simple enough. I would just pick someone out who was not facing me in the crown, and look at them for 5 seconds or so, and see how many of them would "sense" that they were being watched, and turn around. And I was surprised how many of them did turn around. Not half, but a lot, like maybe a quarter of them. And this is in a loud, busy, very distracting environment. I also noticed that it didn't work if I "tried" hard (willed) to make them notice me. It worked better when I just chose and looked at them casually. And it even worked when I would be on a bus of train and the "subject" was on the sidewalk of platform, walking away from me.

Not "scientific", I know, but I used to do this often, and it always surprised me how often the people I was looking at would sense being looked at and turn around to see who's watching them. The world and ourselves are still full of mystery. And we would be fools to assume that we know so much that we can dismiss whole areas of speculation. Unfortunately we humans survive and thrive by knowing the mechanics of our environment, and so we become uncomfortable with the idea of the unknown or unknowable. And that drives us to presume that we can or do know it all, when we do not.

Tricky one this. For example, could it be that anyone who just happens to look around notices someone looking at them and hence the apparent connection between them? My only experience of this was when looking at a dog some distance away, and walking away from me, when the dog did turn to look directly at me for a moment. Who knows?

Edit: In addition to this, might it not be related to our threat-appraisal system - that is, that we tend to concentrate on those apparently interested in us (and being possible threats), and hence often alight on the first example of this? A dog, as in my example, might have a more heightened reaction to such. I have observed the phenomenon before (with other humans) but I haven't paid it that much attention, since the plusses and minuses seemed to have cancelled out.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Tricky one this. For example, could it be that anyone who just happens to look around notices someone looking at them and hence the apparent connection between them? My only experience of this was when looking at a dog some distance away, and walking away from me, when the dog did turn to look directly at me for a moment. Who knows?

Edit: In addition to this, might it not be related to our threat-appraisal system - that is, that we tend to concentrate on those apparently interested in us (and being possible threats), and hence often alight on the first example of this? A dog, as in my example, might have a more heightened reaction to such. I have observed the phenomenon before (with other humans) but I haven't paid it that much attention, since the plusses and minuses seemed to have cancelled out.

If it took thar long to notice a leopard was watching you
from a few feet away its not a skill that will be passed on to
your descendants!

A proper test on subway would involve seeing how many people
look back or whatever in a given time, stared at or not.

When I was 12 or so I read about thst kind of esp.

So I tried it on a guy who was reading a newspaper.
Took 5 minutes or so. Then he looked up and saw me
staring at him.

I was so embarrassed to be caught staring!
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
If it took thar long to notice a leopard was watching you
from a few feet away its not a skill that will be passed on to
your descendants!

A proper test on subway would involve seeing how many people
look back or whatever in a given time, stared at or not.

When I was 12 or so I read about thst kind of esp.

So I tried it on a guy who was reading a newspaper.
Took 5 minutes or so. Then he looked up and saw me
staring at him.

I was so embarrassed to be caught staring!

I must admit although I had known about the watching notion it hadn't occurred to me that there might be a relatively simple explanation - that our apparent looking directly at a watcher might just be that we stop at the first person (or threat) watching us. Like much of what will fall under the heading 'pseudoscience' I haven't had that much interest apart from reading some of the assertions and the evidence given. :ghost:
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I must admit although I had known about the watching notion it hadn't occurred to me that there might be a relatively simple explanation - that our apparent looking directly at a watcher might just be that we stop at the first person (or threat) watching us. Like much of what will fall under the heading 'pseudoscience' I haven't had that much interest apart from reading some of the assertions and the evidence given. :ghost:

If it were true, it would be so easy to demonstrate.

The passion for woo woo in a world full of cool
real things kinda baffles me.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I came across this site - searching for an epitaph for mankind actually. :rolleyes: And quote some comments relating to ESP.

Head Truth: How Evidence for ESP Undermines the “Minds Come From Brains” Dogma

I will give an example of anecdotal evidence for ESP that I can personally testify to. Years ago I was at the Queens Zoo in New York City with my two daughters when they were teenagers. We were looking at a feline animal called a puma, which we could see distantly, far behind a plastic barrier. Suddenly (oddly enough) I had a recollection of a zoo visit I had about eight or ten years previously, when I saw a gorilla just behind a plastic barrier, at the zoo at Busch Gardens in Florida. About three seconds later (before I said anything), my younger daughter said, “Do you remember that gorilla we saw close-up in Busch Gardens?” I was flabbergasted. It was as if there was telepathy going on. The incident seems all the more amazing when you consider that teenagers live very much in the present or the near future, and virtually never talk about things that happened 8 years ago. There was nothing in our field of view that might have caused both of us to have that recollection at the same time. On that zoo visit we hadn't seen a gorilla, nor had we seen any animal near a plastic barrier. When we moved to the next zoo exhibit, just for laughs I asked my older daughter whether perchance she also was thinking of that gorilla we saw about 8 or 10 years ago, before anyone mentioned the gorilla. My jaw dropped when she reported: yes, she also was thinking of that gorilla we saw about eight or ten years ago in Busch Gardens, before anyone had said anything about it. So apparently before anyone said anything, we had three out of three people all recalling the same very distant memory – a memory of seeing a gorilla about eight or ten years ago. How do you explain such a thing without a hypothesis of something like ESP?

Is it me being stupid here or the writer? Why did he think that his daughters would not be triggered in the very same way that he was? They had memories of the earlier encounter (no doubt different but sharing a commonality) - and probably associated with a zoo, animals obviously, and the plastic barrier. To think ESP was necessarily involved seems to be a step too far and perhaps typical of those who would rather put their own (often biased) interpretation on events rather than looking for an easier and obvious explanation.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted his description, but I think we all too often will share the same thoughts and feelings after some particular event - even reacting in much the same way - so no mystical explanation is necessary.

Any thoughts? From those who support ESP and those, like myself, who tend to be more sceptical.

PS This person is obviously intelligent (from much of the content on the site), but he seems to have some strange views. :oops:
I am a believer in psychic functioning in humans from both the anecdotal and experimental evidence.

That being said, I also agree that the story above is a weak example in support of psychic functioning for the reasons you mentioned. If there were only stories like this I would be a skeptic of psychic functioning.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Tricky one this. For example, could it be that anyone who just happens to look around notices someone looking at them and hence the apparent connection between them? My only experience of this was when looking at a dog some distance away, and walking away from me, when the dog did turn to look directly at me for a moment. Who knows?

Edit: In addition to this, might it not be related to our threat-appraisal system - that is, that we tend to concentrate on those apparently interested in us (and being possible threats), and hence often alight on the first example of this? A dog, as in my example, might have a more heightened reaction to such. I have observed the phenomenon before (with other humans) but I haven't paid it that much attention, since the plusses and minuses seemed to have cancelled out.
There is no known mechanism by which one human could sense/intuit that they are being watched. And yet the vast majority of us have experienced this. It would indicate that there is a medium, here, that we know absolutely nothing of.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I came across this site - searching for an epitaph for mankind actually. :rolleyes: And quote some comments relating to ESP.

Head Truth: How Evidence for ESP Undermines the “Minds Come From Brains” Dogma

I will give an example of anecdotal evidence for ESP that I can personally testify to. Years ago I was at the Queens Zoo in New York City with my two daughters when they were teenagers. We were looking at a feline animal called a puma, which we could see distantly, far behind a plastic barrier. Suddenly (oddly enough) I had a recollection of a zoo visit I had about eight or ten years previously, when I saw a gorilla just behind a plastic barrier, at the zoo at Busch Gardens in Florida. About three seconds later (before I said anything), my younger daughter said, “Do you remember that gorilla we saw close-up in Busch Gardens?” I was flabbergasted. It was as if there was telepathy going on. The incident seems all the more amazing when you consider that teenagers live very much in the present or the near future, and virtually never talk about things that happened 8 years ago. There was nothing in our field of view that might have caused both of us to have that recollection at the same time. On that zoo visit we hadn't seen a gorilla, nor had we seen any animal near a plastic barrier. When we moved to the next zoo exhibit, just for laughs I asked my older daughter whether perchance she also was thinking of that gorilla we saw about 8 or 10 years ago, before anyone mentioned the gorilla. My jaw dropped when she reported: yes, she also was thinking of that gorilla we saw about eight or ten years ago in Busch Gardens, before anyone had said anything about it. So apparently before anyone said anything, we had three out of three people all recalling the same very distant memory – a memory of seeing a gorilla about eight or ten years ago. How do you explain such a thing without a hypothesis of something like ESP?

Is it me being stupid here or the writer? Why did he think that his daughters would not be triggered in the very same way that he was? They had memories of the earlier encounter (no doubt different but sharing a commonality) - and probably associated with a zoo, animals obviously, and the plastic barrier. To think ESP was necessarily involved seems to be a step too far and perhaps typical of those who would rather put their own (often biased) interpretation on events rather than looking for an easier and obvious explanation.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted his description, but I think we all too often will share the same thoughts and feelings after some particular event - even reacting in much the same way - so no mystical explanation is necessary.

Any thoughts? From those who support ESP and those, like myself, who tend to be more sceptical.

PS This person is obviously intelligent (from much of the content on the site), but he seems to have some strange views. :oops:

The James Randi Foundation had a prize of one million dollars for anyone who could demonstrate such powers under controlled conditions, the prize went unclaimed.

For the test mentioned in the link to be accepted, it would have to be repeated and validated by other scientists. It seems to have failed to be repeatable.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Any thoughts? From those who support ESP
a car accident came my way when I was soooooo much younger

I felt the event coming

really

I looked for the seat belt...…..old style car
the belt and buckle had slipped the cushions and was on the floor behind the front bench

I put my elbow on the door lock
old style peg

then I put my back on the door and tried to look …..casual

the driver wanted to know if I felt alright
Yeah....sure
just drive the car

and then a drunk ran a stop sign turning left unto the highway

no one hit the brakes
it was that quick

had I been sitting upright …..no belt......no air bags
I would have been thrown through the windshield

and 60 to 0......is said to be a sure kill
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I am a believer in psychic functioning in humans from both the anecdotal and experimental evidence.

That being said, I also agree that the story above is a weak example in support of psychic functioning for the reasons you mentioned. If there were only stories like this I would be a skeptic of psychic functioning.

Well I am still open to the possibilities and I always tend to take anecdotes with a pinch of salt. I think what tends to happen with twins, or perhaps other multi-siblings, that they often are thinking the same things whilst experiencing something should inform us as to how we react to events shared with others.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
There is no known mechanism by which one human could sense/intuit that they are being watched. And yet the vast majority of us have experienced this. It would indicate that there is a medium, here, that we know absolutely nothing of.

But the feeling could be sensed retrospectively after one alights on someone watching one. And if we are in a public space it is likely at some point someone will be looking at us. I think the threat mechanism is a more likely explanation.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
The James Randi Foundation had a prize of one million dollars for anyone who could demonstrate such powers under controlled conditions, the prize went unclaimed.

For the test mentioned in the link to be accepted, it would have to be repeated and validated by other scientists. It seems to have failed to be repeatable.

I did know this, along with the many other claims that have failed his tests or have not been attempted. Perhaps we will see something pass but I don't expect it.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
a car accident came my way when I was soooooo much younger

I felt the event coming

really

I looked for the seat belt...…..old style car
the belt and buckle had slipped the cushions and was on the floor behind the front bench

I put my elbow on the door lock
old style peg

then I put my back on the door and tried to look …..casual

the driver wanted to know if I felt alright
Yeah....sure
just drive the car

and then a drunk ran a stop sign turning left unto the highway

no one hit the brakes
it was that quick

had I been sitting upright …..no belt......no air bags
I would have been thrown through the windshield

and 60 to 0......is said to be a sure kill

I'll agree that events such as this are often unexplainable, and coincidences similarly, but perhaps left as such rather than proposing something outside of science, particularly if they are difficult to replicate. One of my few coincidences almost killed me - three parties travelling on a virtually empty road and meeting at a location such that I was heading (at speed on a motorbike) for the front of a car exiting a tunnel on the wrong side of the road - the car was overtaking two cyclists riding side-by-side. Fortunately I managed to miss him but arriving a second or two earlier would no doubt have seen me dead. How many of such similar things do end in deaths though and how do we distinguish between them?

And of course I was totally unaware of the situation until it actually happened - just a few seconds of my time.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
But the feeling could be sensed retrospectively after one alights on someone watching one. And if we are in a public space it is likely at some point someone will be looking at us. I think the threat mechanism is a more likely explanation.
Why are you working so hard to dismiss the mystery? And what does the cause ("threat mechanism") of this inexplicable sense have to do with the fact of it? Or with the mystery of what medium it uses to function?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Why are you working so hard to dismiss the mystery? And what does the cause ("threat mechanism") of this inexplicable sense have to do with the fact of it? Or with the mystery of what medium it uses to function?

We know that many animals don't like to be observed directly - they see it as a threat - and it's quite likely that humans have something similar (some of us), such that we are quick to sense anyone looking at us (when we look around). Your claim that someone knows when another is looking at them has to be tested against all the other times when they don't feel this, and where someone is actually looking at them. If it was repeatable then there might be some truth to it, but ...
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I had several minutes of a very uneasy feeling

did what I could ….with items at hand

I 'felt' it coming

seriously

Not discounting your feeling. Any possibility that your peripheral vision caught something?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Well I am still open to the possibilities and I always tend to take anecdotes with a pinch of salt. I think what tends to happen with twins, or perhaps other multi-siblings, that they often are thinking the same things whilst experiencing something should inform us as to how we react to events shared with others.
Well a body of anecdotes intelligently and fully considered from all sides can affect my view of reality. I consider this a normal human reasoning and learning skill. For example I do believe many identical twins have an above average psychic connection for example even after considering the cautions you raise.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
We know that many animals don't like to be observed directly - they see it as a threat - and it's quite likely that humans have something similar (some of us), such that we are quick to sense anyone looking at us (when we look around). Your claim that someone knows when another is looking at them has to be tested against all the other times when they don't feel this, and where someone is actually looking at them. If it was repeatable then there might be some truth to it, but ...
It was repeatable for me. I tested the practice, often. And was surprised to see people turn around, quite often. More often than could be accounted for randomly.
 
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