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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad vs Bahaullah..who is the real Mahdi..

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Monotheist 101, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    Below is a video on the Islam-Ahmadiyya argument from Christian Eschatology . . .

    [youtube]LdLgDnpbgkE[/youtube]
    Jesus second coming - YouTube


    I will post something a little later on our interpretation of 4:157 and The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s prophecy regarding one of the functions of The Mahdi as "breaking the cross"
     
  2. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    The Islam Ahmadiyya view on 4:157 is that Jesus (pbuh) was put on the cross but according to a divine scheme he did not die an accursed death there. We believe that Jesus was rescued from the cross, escaped towards Kashmir, India and there in time he died at an old age. We also believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh)’s book “Jesus in India” which we believe is the first book to consolidate a cohesive theory of the survival and sojourn is the fulfillment of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)’s prophecy that The Mahdi will break the cross—meaning he will remove the widespread false notions about Jesus held by both, Muslims and Christians.

    Below are the broad strokes and then a link for those interested in more detail . . .

     As prophesized by Jesus himself, his sign was going to be like the sign of Jonah (pbuh)—Jonah was three days in the belly of the fish but survived the predicament, he didn’t die nor resurrect (Matthew 12:39-40).

     It appears there was a plot to save Jesus. His crucifixion is set for the Sabbath Day when bodies must be removed before nightfall. Pontius Pilate breaks protocol and hands the body over to Joseph of Arimathea. Jesus’s legs are not broken. He spends only a few hours on the cross. And St. Nicodemus brings a large quantity of Aloe herbs (which are known for healing) (John 19:39). Several historical medical texts mention a medication known as “The Ointment of Jesus” and mention it for having been used to treat Jesus’s wounds. One such text is known as “The Canon of Medicine” by Avicenna.

     Jesus makes several appearances after the crucifixion corroborating his having survived the crucifixion. He travels to Galilee and meets the disciples and given Jesus’s mortal enemies the matter is to be kept hush(Matthew 28:10). He bares his wounds to St. Thomas (John 20:25-27). Also see Luke 24:39, 41.

     Jesus is then believed to have undertaken a journey to India through Persia and East Asia to seek out and have his message reach the lost tribes of the Israelites (see Matthew 15:24 and John 10:16). A lot of research and analysis has been done by esoteric scholars on peoples in these regions being originally Israelites. Ancient Persian and Hindu books also make mention of this journey.

     Many of the parallels between the Buddhist Sutras and the Gospels can be explained as Jesus having served as a great teacher to the Buddhists in India at the time. Gautama Sidharta had prophesized the advent of a “Bagwa Mettaya Buddha” or white travelling Buddha. The Sutras, which are believed to have been written around the time Jesus would be India may have incorporated the Gospel accounts.

     Jesus is believed to have lived to a ripe old age as reported by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the tradition is also reported by St. Irenaeus the 2nd century Christian apologist in his book “Against Heresies”.

     Jesus is believed to be buried in The Roza Bal shrine in the Kanyar district of Srinagar in Kashmir, India. We believe that verse 23:50 of The Holy Quran is speaking to Jesus’s survival from the crucifixion and his life in the valley of Kashmir. The name on the shrine is Yuz Asaph which means leader of the healed and also Jesus the Gatherer. The tomb is famously known to belong to a foreign prophet who came there very far back in history.

    For more information, please visit . . .

    Did Jesus (peace be on him) survive the crucifixion? And continue his mission with the lost tribes of the Israelites
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Please study your Bible more closely.
    Jesus, like Jonah, was dead three days and nights.
    'out of the belly of hell [the grave] cried I, and thou heardest my voice.' (Jonah 2:2)
    and later, 'yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God'. (Jonah 2:6)
    Jesus was raised from the dead, like Jonah. Unlike Jonah, Jesus was raised to eternal life - the first fruits of the harvest.
    P.S. Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, not on the Sabbath.
     
  4. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    Well, with differences of interpretation and understanding we can keep telling each other to study the Bible more closely or thoroughly, that won’t be helpful.
    Personally, I reject death and resurrection solely on the basis of rationality. One can call surviving crucifixion to be like death and resurrection, the terms are not inaccurate. But to me the core understanding has to be rational.
    Even so, just from the two verses you quoted—where and how do you draw the meaning or interpretation of a physical death? Is it the belly of hell? Or, the life of corruption? If those terms can be taken as ‘death’ then falling into a swoon from the torture of crucifixion and then being revived three days later can certainly be regarded as ‘death and resurrection’.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Studying something carefully does help. As the scriptures say, 'Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.' (2 Timothy 2:15)
    And what exactly is so irrational about a death by crucifixion?
    John's gospel states clearly, 'Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.' (John 19: 32-35)
    The crucifixion of Jesus, the Lamb of God, was a necessary part of God's plan of redemption. Without the crucifixion and resurrection there is no salvation for mankind.
     
  6. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    Couldn't have said it better myself



    Absolutely nothing, never said there was.


    The problem here is to reconcile this with other verses of The Holy Bible. If you take it as such makes it pretty much impossible to reconcile with verses I have given in thread above referring to post-crucifixion events involving Jesus. Then there is the irrationality of an after-death resurrection.


    Following this doctrine produces a great many contradictions in The Gospels. The only way to reconcile these would be to see these as crafted by Paul or Saul of Tarsus (I beg your pardon, but from what I’ver come to understand, I must refrain from calling him a saint).

    Gospel accounts reveal Paul clashing with the Apostolic Council headed by the revered St. James in Jerusalem and the disciples of Jesus who actually spent time with him. The account of Paul’s fantastical meeting with Jesus isn’t rational nor acceptable. See 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 and Galatians Chapter 2. The Council summons Paul to explain his heresies and sends delegations to the Diaspora regions to regulate the doctrine apparently corrupted by Paul. There is even a reported altercation between James and Paul.

    This is not surprising. Paul’s teachings appear to clash with Christ’s. Paul says “Christ is the end of the law of Moses” (Romans 10:4), Jesus says “he has come to fulfill the law, not abolish it” (Matthew 5:17). Paul says “Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved”(Romans 10:3). But Jesus says “Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven”(Matthew 7:21) and “whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven”(Matthew 5:19). That does not sound to me as someone who believes they will be dying for everyone else’s sins.

    Unfortunately, in 70 CE as Jerusalem is destroyed by The Romans, the Apostolic Council lost its grip over the wider network of churches who inclined to Paul’s version given their orientation to Greek and Roman mythological concepts.

    The earliest of the canonized Gospels, The Gospel of Mark DOES NOT EVEN MENTION THE RESURRECTION OR ASCENSION TO HEAVEN.

    Then, finally at The Council of Nicea in Rome, The Gospels are Canonized per the decision of The Bishops who opted for doctrine of Divinity, Trinity and Atonement apparently to appease their Roman masters. Other versions of The Gospels were violently suppressed. These historical accounts would reconcile the contradictions found in what has come to be known as Christianity or Pauline Christianity—and all the irrationalities there in imported from pagan Greek and Roman mythology i.e. The Easter egg hunt based on The Germanic Goddess Ostara.

    As a comparative, I have already given the analysis put forth by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) which I believe to be a more acceptable and rational discourse on the history of Jesus Christ (pbuh). As this comparative does break away from the subject of this thread, if you are interested in a debate or discussing further then suggest we move to a new thread with the appropriate subject.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    There are no contradictions between the ministries of Paul and of Jesus. Jesus was the minister to his own people, Jews, and Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ as the Apostle to the Gentiles.

    The record of the apostolic debates in Jerusalem (Acts 15) are presented candidly because they show the dawning truth that Jesus Christ is Lord of Jew and Gentile alike. Paul rightly argued that there was no need for Gentiles to become Jews in order to follow Jesus Christ.

    Your third paragraph claims to provide contradictory statements. I do not see this. Jesus fulfilled the law in love. In fulfilling the law he offers a new way - that of the indwelling Holy Spirit. A person walking by the spirit of God walks according to God's will. Paul fully understood this baptism in the spirit - the very baptism that Christ came to provide.

    I would also dispute your claim that Mark's Gospel does not mention the resurrection - it does. So maybe you have a dubious version of the Bible.

    Finally, I would like to comment on 'Paul's fantastical meeting with Jesus' (as you call it). This conversion experience involves miraculous events, but then much of God's work is miraculous. Try taking the miracles out of the Bible and you end up with nothing - literally. Is creation not a miracle?
     
  8. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    These statements are very subjective and don't belong in a discussion like this. You say that while Jesus says he has not come to abolish the law, yet fulfilling the law is abolishing it for the love of the law by offering a new way-- if this what you believe, then let it be your lot and of those who choose to follow it.

    To Jews Jesus says that just calling upon him is not enough, you have to actually follow his teachings and refrain from sin to be saved. But for Gentiles, he authorizes Paul to declare that just calling upon him is enough to be saved? Personally, I choose to follow Jesus (pbuh) and strive to adhere to the commandments.

    I may be mistaken about the Gospel of Mark, but please provide the reference for where the resurrection and ascension is given and what version do you see it in.

    I believe in Miracles too. But these too should be rationalized and follow norm. After all, it is the same God that has accorded us with rationality, logic and the pursuit of knowledge.
     
  9. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    It may be noteworthy here what Jesus (pbuh) has himself prophsized about this subject and the things that will come to pass. The following is from Matthew 7:21-23 . . .

    21. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven.

    22. Many will say unto me that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?and thy name done many wonderful works?

    23. And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity.
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hi Amer,
    Jesus fulfilled the law of God - by which is meant he completed all that was required by the law given to Moses. Even in the appointed festivals and sacrifices one sees the overlaying truth of Christ. The New Testament says that he was the only man born who lived without sin.
    At Jesus' baptism by John, the voice of his Father was heard to say. 'Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' (Mark 1:11)

    The passage you quote from Matthew is great! It shows that Jesus will be Judge at his second coming, able to determine whether a man enter the kingdom of heaven. And yes, a person MUST do the will of God, not just 'many wonderful works'!

    Then Jesus said, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU'!! You see, if you know Jesus you WILL follow his commandments! This is exactly what the apostle Paul understood through faith, because he was born again through the baptism of Jesus Christ. He walked by the spirit of God.

    I like to read the King James Version of the Bible. Mark chapter 16 tells of Jesus' resurrection. To read about Jesus' ascension to heaven one has to turn to Acts 1.

    I agree with you that we need to use our reason and intelligence to understand the things of this world. Reason also gives us insights into heaven, but to fully understand the revealed Word one must apply faith. 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' (Hebrews 11:1)
     
  11. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    My thinking is that Jesus (peace be upon him) fulfilled the law by telling the Jews that given all the corruption that has inflicted them with sectarianism, the corrupt temple priesthood, the terrorists (The Sicarii, Zealots and Bandits who violently murdered infidels including errant Jews to cleanse the Holy Land) it is rather absurd to expect that The Messiah will descend upon them and usher in The Kingdom of Heaven for their bad behavior. He told them that no temporal resurrection of The Kingdom of David was needed for them to redeem themselves before God. Isn’t that what The Messiah was going to do? Isn’t that part of the prophecy of the Old Testament?

    “And he shall judge among the nations, and rebuke many people, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks, nation shall not lift up sword against nation, and they shall not learn war anymore” (Isaiah 2:4)

    I believe this is what he came to teach them. To teach them the real meaning of The Kingdom of Heaven. That The Kingdom of David is secondary and not necessary for them to enter the Kingdom per their own scripture and prophecy i.e. “beating swords into plowshares”

    So he fulfilled the law, as a great prophet to the Hebrews he would know more about it than anyone else at his time. He corrected them, sadly they rejected.

    Yes, but remember this is a prophecy widely regarded about the 2nd coming of Jesus and its interpretation would be that the widely held notions of Jesus (pbuh) at the time would be wrong! Which is why he tells those who “cast out devils in his name” to get away from him. He will disown them. There is support for this interpretation in The Bible itself . . .

    “And then shall appear the sigh of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and glory” (Matthew 24:30)

    This verse is about the 2nd coming of The Messiah. When he comes in glory and power, why will the tribes of the earth mourn? Why? Because, it will not be as how they had imagined. The widely held fantastical and irrational notions of the Muslims and Christians (the tribes of the earth who fill most of the earth today) would be proven wrong!

    I will look into, thank you for the reference

    Indeed

    Btw, we are way way off-topic!
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Apologies. I'll stop there.
     
  13. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    I’m not going to stop :) --- just kidding.

    Since we are on the subject of the nature and mission of The Messiah, I just wanted to say that as per discussions earlier in the thread around parallel events and comparatives, these events are also a heavenly sign of The Messiah.

    The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) used the terminology of “Jesus Son of Mary” or “Isaa Ibne Maryam” for the latter-days Messiah. And then he also mentioned in a famous prophecy that there will come a time that his followers will come to resemble the Jews like “the shoe on one foot resembles the other”.

    Just like the Jewish ideology about The Messiah builds a narrative around war and conquest to return to the glory of The Kingdom of David with bloodshed and violence during the era of Jesus, the Islamic tradition is unfolding with a remarkable parallel.
    Many so-called Islamic movements and scholars of the 19th and 20th century see violence as a means to cleanse the Islamic world as well as the larger one. The Wahaabi movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda and a cohort of scattered groups are following an ideology of violence in the footsteps of their Jewish counterparts till they launched of war with Rome and their subsequent destruction in 70 CE. These groups today also desire a return to the glory days of The Rashideen Caliphate. And they are just as unsuccessful at it.

    But just as Jesus (pbuh) explained to the Israelites, so has Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) to the Muslims of this time—that that sort of victory just doesn’t when you are so steeped in sin and violence. And that they had better put down the sword.

    This is the rational interpretation of the meaning of The Second Coming. Of course, those who are gazing at the skies for the advent, are free to do so.
     
  14. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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  15. raph

    raph Member

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    I respect the Ahmadiyyas for their peaceful, loving way of life, but for me it is pretty clear that Bahaullah is the true one from God. I have heard of Ghulam Ahmad before I heard about Bahaullah, but thought of him only as a person who understand Islam, and felt no urge to join his sect. Speaking of which, he created further division inside islam which is a sin from a quranic pov. For me, his claims didnt seem very confident and I just expect more from the promised one. His claims about Jesus death contradict my logic. How could God trick the christians into believing that Jesus died, if He just went to india? Werent two messianic figures expected within islam?

    When I first read a writing from Bahaulluh, I was awestruck and heard the voice of God. Thats what I expect from the promised one. I expect God talking to me and not just an intelligent guy, who creates a sect. Bahaullah was a prisoner who talked like the king of kings. He would have made other so called messiahs cry just with a glance. The lives of both the Bab and Bahaullah fullfil many prophecies and the epicness of the Bahai faith is just what I expect from the promised return of Christ. They dont tell strange stories about previous Prophets, rather they accept the previous scriptures like Muhammad and Jesus did. Bahaullah has brought something new, his teachings were ahead of his time at least 100 years. but Mirza Ghulam Ahmad only revived 1400 year old teachings from Muhammad saw.

    And the thread should be called Mirza Ghulam Ahmad vs Bab, because Bahaullah never claimed to be Mahdi. Bab was Mahdi and Bahaullah Jesus. Two persons just like prophecied in Nt Quran and Hadith
     
  16. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    It appears you are poorly educated in The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam and the claims of Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) or may have just studied it in passing. As for confidence goes, below is a prophecy of Ghulam Ahmad:

    "Hearken, all ye people, this is the prophecy of Him Who has created the heavens and the earth . . . God will bless this faith and this Movement in a remarkable and extraordinary way and will frustrate everyone who designs to destroy it. This superiority will endure forever till the Judgment Day . . . Bear it in mind that no one will descend from heaven. All our opponents, who are alive today, will die... and their children, who remain behind them, will die... and then their children’s children will die and none of them will see the son of Maryam [Mary] descending from heaven. Then God will create unrest in their hearts that the time of the dominance of the cross had elapsed and the world had taken on another aspect and yet ‘Isaa [Jesus], son of Maryam [Mary], had not descended from heaven. Then suddenly all men of understanding will be weary of this doctrine. The third century from today would not have elapsed when all who wait for ‘Isaa’ [Jesus] to descend from heaven, whether Muslims or Christians, will give up this doctrine in hopeless despair and disgust. Then there will be only one religion and one leader. I have come to sow the seed and the seed has been sown by my hand. It will now grow and flourish and there is no one who can hinder it."

    You said that Ghulam Ahmad has just created another sect in Islam and that is sinful per the Quran. Yes, dividing up the religion in sects is against the teachings of the Quran. However, here is a prophecy and hadith of prophet Muhammad: "There will come a time upon my followers when they will come to resemble the Jews like the shoe on one foot resembles the shoe on the other. If anyone from the Jews committed adultery against his mother then someone from my followers will do the same. The Jews divided themselves into 72 sects. My followers will divide into 73 sects. All of them will be in the Fire except one-- they are the ones who will be following me and my companions."

    The Ahmadiyya claim is that we are the 73rd sect in the prophecy known as Firqa Najiya (heavenly guided sect). Note that the prophecy says that all the other 72 are in the fire, meaning they no longer represent Islam. Our claim is that we are the true Islam and have never wavered from that claim despite severe persecution and threats of destruction. By contrast, Bahaullah abrogated the religion of Islam and started a new religion during the conference of Badasht only after the Bab was executed and movement came under threat, that does not sound right at all for someone who claimed to be a manifestation of God. This does not tie into the prophecy from any dimension-- both Jesus and Ahmad never abrogated or left their respective religions under threat. The Messiahs Ahmad and Jesus were in the dispensation of their respective religions of Islam and Judaism though both were declared heretics they never abrogated or left the religion to start a new one.

    Bahaullah's own claims and writings are not even about the coming of the Messiah or prophet of God in latter-days. He claims to be some novelty as a manifestation of God apart from the cycle of prophets in the past which is contradictory to the prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) on the coming of the Messiah.

    God never tricked the Christians, there were no official Christians at the time-- they all claimed to be Jews. As for the Jews, the Quran says in 4:157-158 that the Jews were not able to kill him on the cross-- he only appeared as such meaning he was probably in a swoon and later recovered to health in three days. There is a plethora of academic scholarship from Persian, Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic and even Christian traditions that Jesus had survived the crucifixion and traveled in Asia minor seeking the lost tribes of the Israelites. Ghulam Ahmad wrote a book on the subject and is the first person in history to have consolidated Jesus's survival and post-crucifixion life. Let me know if you would like references and I would be happy to post them here. This fulfills the prophecy of Mohammad (pbuh) that the Mahdi will break the cross, meaning dissolve the wrong doctrine of the death and divinity of Christ. Bahaullah does no such thing.

    There are no two messianic figures, there never was such a thing before in history. Another reference for the latter-days Messiah is known as Mahdi, which simply means "guided".
     
    #56 ameraz1, May 25, 2015
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
  17. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Ameraz... My feeling is that this is a "comparative religion" board... Discussion, no debate, of general religion topics.

    I accept that Ahmadiyya are the 73rd sect of Islam as you've stated.

    You have your opinions and are entitled to them! However "debate" as such is not for this board. If you want to state your views on the Ahmadiyya DIR that's cool...

     
  18. raph

    raph Member

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    I have not studied much from him. As far as I know, there is no online source, where I can read his writings in english. Did he really say that:

    ·"I do not claim that I am the same Mahdi who will come according to (words of Hadith) 'from the son of Fatima and from my progeny' etc." (Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya V, Roohani Khazain vol.21 p.356)

    ·"We admit this that several Mahdis may have come before and possibly will come in future as well and probably someone by the name of Imam Muhammad may also appear." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.379)

    ·"It is possible and quite possible that at some time in future such Messiah may appear upon whom the literal words of Hadith(of Holy Prophet) fit, because this humble self has not come with the Reign and Command of this world, but with poverty and humility." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol 3 p.197)

    ·"It is possible that in future no Messiah may come. It is possible 10,000 more Messiah may come and one of them may descend in Damascus." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol 3 p.251)

    Sorry for quoting anti Ahmadiyya sites, but this is the only stuff I could find. I just want information about these things, so it is not a debate I think.

    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani conducted a Mubahala with Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi, in Eidgah ground of Amristar on Zeeqadah 10, 1310 A.H.
    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had said on Oct. 2, 1907 (7 months, 24 days before his death) that "the liar among the participants in a Mubahala dies during the lifetime of the truthful." (Majmuai-Ishtiharat Mirza Qadiani, Vol. 9, P.440)
    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani died during the lifetime of Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi on May 26, 1908

    Is this accurate?

    So humanity will know soon :)

    Every sect thinks, that they are the one. If you believe in sunni hadiths, you should know, that Mahdi will be a descendant of Muhammad. That's probably the most important attribute of Mahdi in all Hadiths.

    Baha'u'llahs claims are exactly about him coming as the messiah in the latter days.

    They read the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord, notwithstanding that He hath come through the potency of His exalted, His mighty and gracious dominion. We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust.

    - Bahaullah, Most Holy Tablet (Tablet to the Christians)

    O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me.

    - Bahaullah, Gleanings from the writings of Bahaullah, p. 101

    So God tricked the jews or what ever followers of Jesus called themselves at that time. The followers of Jesus all believed, that Jesus died on the cross, was dead, and appeared to people after 3 days as a spirit. So if this didn't happen, God would have tricked the followers of Jesus into a false belief. And if the bible was false, then you still would need to explain, why the Quran says, that Jesus didn't die, but was taken up to heaven.

    The shiites and sunnites both believe, that Mahdi and Jesus are two persons.
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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  20. ameraz1

    ameraz1 Amer

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    Religion:
    Islam-Ahmadiyya
    Artha, agree-- however, you should address that to raph first, I was merely responding.
     
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