Miracles

[Fool]

if someone could actually work miracles, how would that be of service to anyone in need and it isn't fulfilling a need?


matthew 24:24

 

[MikeF]

if someone could actually work miracles, how would that be of service to anyone in need and it isn't fulfilling a need?


matthew 24:24

Why the assumption that a miracle worker has to necessarily perform any miracles at all, let alone for someone "in need", however you define that concept.

Can a miracle worker perform any miracle whatsoever, or are there limits?

Is there a cost to the miracle worker in performing miracles? What is the calculus if performing some miracle comes at great personal cost to the miracle worker?

 

[Fool]

Why the assumption that a miracle worker has to necessarily perform any miracles at all, let alone for someone "in need", however you define that concept.

it doesn't require they do. its a question of if they perform what is believed to be a miracle by observers, who can't reproduce that effect. the question is to observers/believers of miracles and not to miracle workers.

Can a miracle worker perform any miracle whatsoever, or are there limits?

if a person didn't understand the technology and/or the process, a less enlightened person might consider it a miracle. but again that isn't what the question is addressing.

Is there a cost to the miracle worker in performing miracles? What is the calculus if performing some miracle comes at great personal cost to the miracle worker?

again this thread isn't addressed exclusively to miracle workers but more so to those that believe in them and their relevance to the human condition.

 

[MikeF]

it doesn't require they do. its a question of if they perform what is believed to be a miracle by observers, who can't reproduce that effect. the question is to observers/believers of miracles and not to miracle workers.

if a person didn't understand the technology and/or the process, a less enlightened person might consider it a miracle. but again that isn't what the question is addressing.

again this thread isn't addressed exclusively to miracle workers but more so to those that believe in them and their relevance to the human condition.

Well I suppose my confusion lies in your wording of the OP. You specifically said that "someone could actually perform miracles", not "If someone were perceived to work miracles".

Are you asking whether there is a psychological benefit for a person in need to believe that miracles can happen, even if they can't?

 

[Fool]

Well I suppose my confusion lies in your wording of the OP. You specifically said that "someone could actually perform miracles", not "If someone were perceived to work miracles".

Are you asking whether there is a psychological benefit for a person in need to believe that miracles can happen, even if they can't?

could does not mean can, those who can are not like those who could. a possibility is not an actuality

 

[MikeF]

could does not mean can, those who can are not like those who could. a possibility is not an actuality

I would disagree. They do mean the same thing, just different tenses. In both cases it is stating that at some point in time, whether past or present, there is a capacity to do something, in this case perform a miracle, however you define such.

Again, what is your focus, what is your point? You seemed to indicate that you are not interested in the actual capacity of the purported miracle worker, rather, you are interested in the perceptions and attitudes of people in need with respect to their belief in miracles.

 

[Fool]

I would disagree. They do mean the same thing, just different tenses. In both cases it is stating that at some point in time, whether past or present, there is a capacity to do something, in this case perform a miracle, however you define such.

Again, what is your focus, what is your point? You seemed to indicate that you are not interested in the actual capacity of the purported miracle worker, rather, you are interested in the perceptions and attitudes of people in need with respect to their belief in miracles.

they are different tenses for a reason. i also know you left off the "if" and i used the word in reference to could actually, so in that context they don't mean the same thing. if is a condition and could is a condition, it isn't an actual. i never stated miracles were or were not real.

again you're still confused

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Is there a cost to the miracle worker in performing miracles?

Dear MikeF,

This, of course, depends on what definition of “miracle” is applied but, if we were to speak of “miracles” as did the great mystics - as altered states of mind, permitting a different outlook on occurring circumstances -, the “price” to pay would be ego (and much that goes with it).

A mystic performs their miracles at the expense of their concept of separate self. Likewise, receiving a mystic’s miracle will cost you your own ego too.

And once a mystic’s miracle is in place and at work, there is of course much else that will be abandoned also, but rather than feeling the loss of that, we feel the gain of all that is given to us in return.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[MikeF]

.. again you're still confused

Really, I'm trying not to be, hence all my questions.

they are different tenses for a reason. i also know you left off the "if" and i used the word in reference to could actually, so in that context they don't mean the same thing. if is a condition and could is a condition, it isn't an actual. i never stated miracles were or were not real.

Since I am having so much trouble, could you spell out the point of the OP for me?

 

[Fool]

Really, I'm trying not to be, hence all my questions.



Since I am having so much trouble, could you spell out the point of the OP for me?

there are folks who "believe" in miracles. what relevance does that have with alleviating suffering? with being of service? if i can perform a miracle, like walking on water, what does that benefit anyone; except the one walking on water?

if i can be like midas and turn common things into gold, what does that miracle benefit someone dying with cancer? what benefit does that become when gold is as common as dirt?

 

[MikeF]

there are folks who "believe" in miracles. what relevance does that have with alleviating suffering? with being of service? if i can perform a miracle, like walking on water, what does that benefit anyone; except the one walking on water?

if i can be like midas and turn common things into gold, what does that miracle benefit someone dying with cancer? what benefit does that become when gold is as common as dirt?

Your first reference seems to point to Jesus, and although the claimed miracle you chose to highlight does not directly alleviate suffering or provide a particular service, there are other miracles attributed to Jesus that do alleviate some type of suffering, be it hunger or illness.

I suppose the value of a non-service miracle is to provide evidence or demonstrate that one actually has the claimed enhanced abilities, which then would be used to bolster other claims that may not be demonstrated, such as promises of granting eternal life in exchange for fealty and obedience.

Of course, if claimed miracles are impossible and never occurred, then their use in supporting other claims would simply be a con to serve the needs of the con artist.

 

[MikeF]

Dear MikeF,

This, of course, depends on what definition of “miracle” is applied but, if we were to speak of “miracles” as did the great mystics - as altered states of mind, permitting a different outlook on occurring circumstances -, the “price” to pay would be ego (and much that goes with it).

A mystic performs their miracles at the expense of their concept of separate self. Likewise, receiving a mystic’s miracle will cost you your own ego too.

And once a mystic’s miracle is in place and at work, there is of course much else that will be abandoned also, but rather than feeling the loss of that, we feel the gain of all that is given to us in return.


Humbly,
Hermit

Yes, I suppose it would come down to what one means when they use the word "miracle" and whether that particular meaning actually represents a real phenomenon.

 

[Fool]

Your first reference seems to point to Jesus, and although the claimed miracle you chose to highlight does not directly alleviate suffering or provide a particular service, there are other miracles attributed to Jesus that do alleviate some type of suffering, be it hunger or illness.

ok

I suppose the value of a non-service miracle is to provide evidence or demonstrate that one actually has the claimed enhanced abilities, which then would be used to bolster other claims that may not be demonstrated, such as promises of granting eternal life in exchange for fealty and obedience.

why walk on water just to get in a boat to finish off the trip? why not give the disciples the capability to forego riding in a boat and finish off the walk, vs getting in the boat? i don't know but really seems irrelevant since it just caused a struggle within the disciples who were told they could do all these things and more; if they believed.

Of course, if claimed miracles are impossible and never occurred, then their use in supporting other claims would simply be a con to serve the needs of the con artist.

i agree

 

[MikeF]

why walk on water just to get in a boat to finish off the trip? why not give the disciples the capability to forego riding in a boat and finish off the walk, vs getting in the boat? i don't know but really seems irrelevant since it just caused a struggle within the disciples who were told they could do all these things and more; if they believed.

All good questions that I assume are not meant to be asked. One is simply to be impressed with the claimed act of walking on water and accept it as a demonstration of a divine attribute or at least the assistance and support of a divine entity.

 

[Fool]

All good questions that I assume are not meant to be asked. One is simply to be impressed with the claimed act of walking on water and accept it as a demonstration of a divine attribute or at least the assistance and support of a divine entity.

in another gospel the protagonist actually takes a boat by himself to be alone. so again why bother with a boat; when walking on the water would be a faster mode.

 

[MikeF]

in another gospel the protagonist actually takes a boat by himself to be alone. so again why bother with a boat; when walking on the water would be a faster mode.

Given the length of time that has transpired from the alleged event, one can only use our accumulated knowledge of the world to date and our understanding of human behavior to evaluate such claims.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Yes, I suppose it would come down to what one means when they use the word "miracle" and whether that particular meaning actually represents a real phenomenon.

I agree. As long as we are not implying that altered states of mind that change our outlook on occurring circumstances, don’t result in real changes to what actually occurs.
For, unfolding events are the result of people’s actions/reactions and our actions/reactions are the result of our take on a situation at hand.

The key to a mystic’s miracle is, after all, this: change someone’s view on what is taking place and what takes place, literally changes.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Wildswanderer]

why walk on water just to get in a boat to finish off the trip?

Because it was the shortest distance between two points. People like to over complicate things.

 

[MikeF]

I agree. As long as we are not implying that altered states of mind that change our outlook on occurring circumstances, don’t result in real changes to what actually occurs.
For, unfolding events are the result of people’s actions/reactions and our actions/reactions are the result of our take on a situation at hand.

The key to a mystic’s miracle is, after all, this: change someone’s view on what is taking place and what takes place, literally changes.


Humbly,
Hermit

I suppose Donald Trump might qualify as a mystic then.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I suppose Donald Trump might qualify as a mystic then.

Hah! I get your point.


But no, absolutely not.

Humbly,
Hermit