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Featured Miracles. Scientific Proof.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by questfortruth, Aug 14, 2022.

  1. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    Sheldon: "I don't believe in miracles"

    Thesis: Miracles Exist. Proof:
    If miracle is impossible, then it is impossible miracle. But latter is definition of a miracle.

    ItSo: "That's a tautology".

    No. I disagree. No tautology.

    ItSo: "Therefore it IS a tautology."

    No. Please explain. No tautology.
    If miracle is impossible, then it is impossible miracle. No logical error.

    ItSo: "If miracles are impossible, they don't happen."

    Do not modify text of my proof. It is corrupting it. If I would add a^3 to the Pythagorean theorem a^2+b^2=c^2, it will corrupt it.

    F1fan: "How would you test whether miracles happen?"

    Physics does not know what is Effect Placebo and what is UFO.
     
    #1 questfortruth, Aug 14, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    If miracles are impossible, they don't happen.
     
    #2 It Aint Necessarily So, Aug 14, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
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  3. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    Do not modify text of my proof. It is corrupting it. If I would add a^3 to the Pythagorean theorem a^2+b^2=c^2, it will corrupt it.
     
  4. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    If miracles happen then they happen arbitrarily and without intent.

    I suggest miracles exist as mental phenomenon, as when there is a random close call and someone survives an incident by chance. Of course the religious will immediately fall back on their religious assumptions, and ignore all the tragedies that could have used divine intervention. Confirmation bias.

    How would you test whether miracles happen? Drop babies off a building and see if God intervenes to save them? I have a prediction.
     
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  5. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    Physics does not know what is Effect Placebo and what is UFO.
     
  6. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    You don't have a proof there.

    I clarified your argument: If miracles are impossible, they don't occur. That's a tautology, not a proof.

    Do you consider this a defense of your argument? It's not. It's also not a proof.
     
    #6 It Aint Necessarily So, Aug 14, 2022
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  7. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    No. I disagree. No tautology.
     
  8. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    questfortruth does not know what is proper sentence structure and reasoning.
     
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  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    If a so-called 'miracle' happens, I will check with science as to what it says. I have not seen any miracle happening in my 80 years. Of course, someone did not board Titanic. Is that a miracle?
     
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  10. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    What about your birth?
     
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  11. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    No. Please explain. No tautology.
    If miracle is impossible, then it is impossible miracle. No logical error.
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Every day 67,385 babies are born in India, that's one sixth of the world's child births. - Google Search

    My birth was not a miracle.
     
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  13. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. It is miracle. There are many of them. Open your mind. What is Dark Energy, Dark Matter? Miracles.
     
  14. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    You are playing word games, not making an argument.
     
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  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    If we do not understand something, we should not ascribe it to a fictitious God or call it a miracle. We should continue searching for reason.
     
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  16. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    Blaspheme!
     
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  17. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Your comment is a typical tautology, a redundancy: "a phrase or expression in which the same thing is said twice in different words."

    No, but also, no information.

    You are making a semantic error, however, by failing to recognize what the word impossible means. It appears that you think something impossible can occur. That would be the opposite of a tautology, which is always correct because it is formally correct: A = A(reworded). When you use the word impossible to mean possible, it's a violation of noncontradiction: A = not-A.

    Your conditional premise is that miracles are impossible, so you are contradicting yourself claiming they exist. You're ignoring the meaning of the word impossible when you treat it as an accidental characteristic of miracles, like unwitnessed or ancient or annual or rare. These words, when appearing before and modifying the word miracle, affirm their existence or possibility. The adjective you chose does the opposite.

    Only to believers. The unbeliever's world is free of all of that - blasphemy, sin, salvation, hell, sacrilege, unholy, impiety, Satan and evil, etc.. The skeptic is a critical thinker, and doesn't admit faith-based beliefs into his mental map of reality. As result, none of that populates or haunts his theater of consciousness. He leaves that kind of worrying to the theist.

    You might like this from atheist and anti-theist firebrand Pat Condell:

    "It must be quite galling for religious people to see atheists like me going about their business without a shred of guilt or self-loathing, and not in the least inclined to pray or to do penance of any kind, and not in the slightest bit worried about any form of eternal punishment. I have to admit if I was religious I'd probably think to myself: "How come I've got all this weight on my shoulders while these bums are getting a free ride?"
     
    #17 It Aint Necessarily So, Aug 14, 2022
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  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Well, fact in my opinion. :D
    I do not even have the baggage of creation, birth and death. It is all a play of atoms and molecules.
     
    #18 Aupmanyav, Aug 14, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
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  19. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    :rolleyes: gibberish...again
     
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  20. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    I can't say whether they are possible, only that they are defined in such a way as to suggest an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. The claim itself appears to be irrational.

    Miracle
    noun
    1. an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
    So that's an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, since it's asserting something is valid because it hasn't been disproved. It also is claiming no natural or scientific laws explain something, when what it means is we don't currently have such an explanation. It is course an appeal to mystery.
     
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