1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Militant Atheism

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Aug 20, 2015.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    10,795
    Ratings:
    +3,791
    Religion:
    Antipolitician
    I thought this was all last century. I don't really see American Atheist as much of a threat if all they are going to do is use the legal system to get crosses removed and carry signs that say kill Jesus.

    It didn't seem fair to bring up Marx, but I wonder if Marxism is not the epitome of atheism. Isn't it implied by Atheism that religion is harmful? If so, isn't reasonable to take step to prevent that harm?

    It maybe just a matter of degree how far is an individual willing to go to prevent what they see as harmful.
     
  2. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,879
    Ratings:
    +6,437
    If we as atheists are going to spend most of our time debating people's most deeply held beliefs and criticising them, eventually- it ours turn. Communism is atheism's problem. it's that simple. atheism doesn't come in a single shape or size and yeah and it isn't an automatic relationship between communism and atheism. there are alot of ways to become an atheist. But communism is still atheist and it was used to justify some really aweful things. Stalin was an atheist. Mao was an athiest. Pol Pot was an atheist.

    If we want to blame religion for a load of stuff they did, theists get the right to do it to us to. if we want to criticise religious people for having beliefs that don't measure up to the facts, they get to do it to us as well. Skepticism and Free Thought work both ways. We get to be sceptical of them, and they do of us. We question they're faith, and so why shouldn't we question our reason? it's not a reflection on us when we get it wrong. But it is a reflection on us when we prefer to ignore the truth.

    After 13 pages, the freethinkers are still in denial. Good luck with your scepticism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    He was also a born and raised theist.
     
  4. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    Raised Christian
     
  5. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    Raised Buddhist
     
  6. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    How is a political embarrassment, and problem for non theist?


    It is politic problem, because politics used atheism as a tool to control people. Atheism did not control the political decisions :rolleyes:



    Try again
     
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    47,966
    Ratings:
    +15,189
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487
    http://www.alternet.org/belief/6-types-atheists-and-non-believers-america
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
    There are many types of atheism.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    47,966
    Ratings:
    +15,189
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    What they were is irrelevant. What they were is, and what they were were statist and militant atheists. But, it does show that how the system is set up isn't as important as whose setting it up.
     
  9. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    Disagree. Its the foundation of who the persons was.

    1. Were these people atheists?
    2. If so, was their atheism causally instrumental in these people carrying out such atrocities?
    3. Are these atrocities different in any particular and important way to those carried out by religious predecessors?
     
  10. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/...atheism-hitlerstalinpol-pot-atheism-atrocity/

    By contrast to all this, the Soviet Union was undeniably an atheist state, and the same applies to Maoist China and to Pol Pot’s fanatical Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia in the 1970s. That does not, however, show that the atrocities committed by these totalitarian dictatorships were the result of atheist beliefs, carried out in the name of atheism, or caused primarily by the atheistic aspects of the relevant forms of communism. In all of these cases, the situation was more complex – as, to be fair, also applies to some of the persecutions and atrocities in which religious movements, organizations, and leaders have been deeply implicated over the centuries.
     
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    47,966
    Ratings:
    +15,189
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    In that sense, very few people could actually call themselves an atheist, or any real adherent of any philosophy or religion. Just because I was a Christian doesn't mean I am now, and it doesn't mean my decisions are made in regards to Christian ideology.
     
  12. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    47,966
    Ratings:
    +15,189
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    You do realize that theists use the same sort of argument to try to defend their beliefs against it's own evil doings, right?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    I understand atheism is not innocent here, but these communist tactics are weak theistic attacks, using political motivated tragedies to attack people with different opinions.
     
  14. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,805
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    Doesn't matter.

    These examples are for he most part political, and the people that used atheism for their political agenda.

    Its behavior of bad people regardless of faith or lack of.

    It was not their lack of belief in a god that caused these tragedies.
     
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    52,743
    Ratings:
    +12,058
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    No, it isn't. Communism is communists' problem, whether they're theists or atheists.

    And Hitler was a vegetarian. Should this be a problem for modern vegetarians?

    But atheism isn't a thing that makes an "us". There is no commonality between "people who aren't theists". It's as disparate a group as "people who don't speak Chinese".

    Go ahead - question my reasons for my positions... but don't assume that I share the positions or problems of some other guy just because he and I both don't believe in any gods (or don't smoke, or don't speak Chinese).
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    52,743
    Ratings:
    +12,058
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    52,743
    Ratings:
    +12,058
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    You tell us. Start with the premise "I don't believe in any gods" and give us a chain of valid reasoning that doesn't rely on any other premises and ends with "therefore, I should consider religion harmful."

    Good luck.
     
  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    10,795
    Ratings:
    +3,791
    Religion:
    Antipolitician
    That's already been done via Karl Marx. He saw religion as suppressing the greatness of man. Religion is oppression like slavery. If you don't free your fellowman from oppression, allowing each person to become the greatest possible being they could be, what kind of human are you? (that's a rhetorical question)

    ""The criticism of religion leads to the doctrine according to which man is, for man, the supreme being; therefore it reaches the categorical imperative of overthrowing all relationships in which man is a degraded, enslaved, abandoned, contemptible being." - Karl Marx

    The question for you would be rather you see religion as a good healthy pursuit. If yes then why don't you pursue it? If no then, if you don't see religion as healthy, why don't you have any concern for your fellowman?

    A third choice would be to have no opinion about religion, which would mean that you'd be equally fine with a theocracy.

    There's another option but I don't want to dilute the response yet.
     
    #258 Nakosis, Aug 31, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
  19. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    10,795
    Ratings:
    +3,791
    Religion:
    Antipolitician
    This is from the 1959 court case which challenged prayer recitation in the public schools.

    "Your petitioners are atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."

    Sounds a bit like Marx.
    Wouldn't an Atheist want his fellowman to also find a life of fulfillment?

    Why worry about separation of church and state if there is nothing wrong with religion?

    Certainly there is no necessary reason an atheist has to care about his fellowman. Let all them folks remain slaves to their religions beliefs. So there are caring atheists who fight against the slavery of their fellowman and those which don't care about anyone else being suppressed by it as long as they are left alone.

    Lets say for the sake of argument that a person is an atheist and happens to care about his fellowman. This is the logical position of Marx isn't it?
     
  20. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    9,050
    Ratings:
    +2,497
    Religion:
    Reality's Fool / Dual-aspect pantheist
    How can someone be "born" theist if everyone by default is atheist? You mean his family and parents where theists, but not that he was actually born a theist. Right?
     
Loading...