Militant Atheism

[leibowde84]

I was a COMMUNIST. and I continue to be an atheist. you are getting this from the horses mouth. you are wrong.

Is there any evidence I can give you that your position is wrong?

You would have to prove that all atheists are anti-theists. Or you could provide an unbiased source that defines both as meaning the same thing. But, you haven't done any of this. You are basing your argument on nothing more than your own subjective experience and mere speculation.

 

[leibowde84]

I was a COMMUNIST. and I continue to be an atheist. you are getting this from the horses mouth. you are wrong.

Is there any evidence I can give you that your position is wrong?

Communism is a political position, BTW. There is no necessary connection between this and atheism, as there are many atheists who adhere to right wing conservatism here in the states alone.

 

[Augustus]

Atheism and anti-theism are different positions. I never said that atheists cannot also be anti-theists.

But you would accept that there is a very big connection between atheism and anti-theism.

For most anti-theists, they are anti-theist because they are atheist.

Communism is a political position, BTW. There is no necessary connection between this and atheism, as there are many atheists who adhere to right wing conservatism here in the states alone.

But atheism was an important foundation for most Marxist philosophy and ideology. Anything that was 'false consciousness' had to be removed so that the 'science' could prevail and man reach his true state.

To say there is 'no connection' between atheism and communism is like saying there is no connection between communist philosophy and communism.

 

[outhouse]

Is there any evidence I can give you that your position is wrong?

There is no credible evidence

I was a COMMUNIST.

Non sequitur.

That sir is apolitical position

 

[outhouse]

But you would accept that there is a very big connection between atheism and anti-theism.

Not as big as the connection between fanaticism and fundamentalism and religion.

"Very big" is actually not accurate

 

[Laika]

You would have to prove that all atheists are anti-theists. Or you could provide an unbiased source that defines both as meaning the same thing. But, you haven't done any of this. You are basing your argument on nothing more than your own subjective experience and mere speculation.

No. I have done this repeatedly in this thread and on RF. I am tired of being called a liar. So I'm now asking what it will take to prove otherwise.

Would any first hand sources from communist literature or authors qualify as an 'unbiased source'?

 

[outhouse]

But atheism was an important foundation for most Marxist philosophy and ideology

You have not been around long enough, but this is argued ad nauseam and your wrong.

First he was raised a Jew, WHO converted to Christianity.

Second, his philosophy was one of economics and politics, not atheism.


Why cant people study before they post ??????????

 

[Augustus]

Not as big as the connection between fanaticism and fundamentalism and religion.

"Very big" is actually not accurate

What's religion got to do with it?

Every anti-theist I have ever met personally is anti-theist because they are atheist (as was I when I was an anti-theist). Maybe I've just met an unrepresentative sample though, but i doubt it.

For almost all anti-theists the foundation stone is 'Religions are false, therefore...', just as for fundies the foundation stone is 'My religion is correct, therefore...'

 

[outhouse]

Would any first hand sources from communist literature or authors qualify as an 'unbiased source'?

No

So I'm now asking what it will take to prove otherwise.

Credible academic sources.

There are none, sorry, you cannot prove it.

 

[leibowde84]

No. I have done this repeatedly in this thread and on RF. I am tired of being called a liar. So I'm now asking what it will take to prove otherwise.

Would any first hand sources from communist literature or authors qualify as an 'unbiased source'?

They wouldn't be relevant. You are providing evidence that shows that communists are (most often) outspoken atheists, which I agree with. So, the claim that Communism has an association with atheism is fine. But, the claim the opposite, that atheism somehow has a necessary connection with communism is unsupported thus far. Claims by communists trying to take atheism as their own are obviously irrelevant, as they can claim whatever they want.

You need to show that atheism ("being without theism") in and of itself is a political theory. This you have not done.

 

[outhouse]

Maybe I've just met an unrepresentative sample though

That's your problem, its personal. And I think your correct.


I know many theist who like me have a passion for religion, but refuse all of the mythology most theist don't even understand..

 

[leibowde84]

No. I have done this repeatedly in this thread and on RF. I am tired of being called a liar. So I'm now asking what it will take to prove otherwise.

Would any first hand sources from communist literature or authors qualify as an 'unbiased source'?

This is like saying that, because eugenics was based on Darwin's Theory of Evolution, somehow the Theory of Evolution is barbaric/destructive. It's nonsensical at best.

 

[ether-ore]

[QUOTE="outhouse, post: 4407887, member: 25877" or put to the fire.[/QUOTE]

Someone has murder in their heart

 

[leibowde84]

No. I have done this repeatedly in this thread and on RF. I am tired of being called a liar. So I'm now asking what it will take to prove otherwise.

Would any first hand sources from communist literature or authors qualify as an 'unbiased source'?

Just out of curiosity, why would you consider claims from communists about atheism as legitimate/relevant to this conversation? Do you grant them representation for atheism in general or something? I mean, does the Westborough Church represent all Christians?

 

[outhouse]

[QUOTE="outhouse, post: 4407887, member: 25877" or put to the fire.

Someone has murder in their heart[/QUOTE]


Someone needs to learn how to use the quote feature properly brother.

 

[leibowde84]

Someone has murder in their heart

Someone needs to learn how to use the quote feature properly brother.[/QUOTE]
Yeah ... where did that even come from?

 

[Augustus]

You have not been around long enough, but this is argued ad nauseam and your wrong.

First he was raised a Jew, WHO converted to Christianity.

Second, his philosophy was one of economics and politics, not atheism.


Why cant people study before they post ??????????

"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.

It is, therefore, the task of history, once the other-world of truth has vanished, to establish the truth of this world. It is the immediate task of philosophy, which is in the service of history, to unmask self-estrangement in its unholy forms once the holy form of human self-estrangement has been unmasked. Thus, the criticism of Heaven turns into the criticism of Earth, the criticism of religion into the criticism of law, and the criticism of theology into the criticism of politics." Karl Marx - A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right


Marx didn't separate religion from politics, ideology or society. "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.", it was a fundamental part of a broader ideology.

Why is this so hard for people to accept?

Just out of curiosity, why would you consider claims from communists about atheism as legitimate/relevant to this conversation? Do you grant them representation for atheism in general or something? I mean, does the Westborough Church represent all Christians?

As part of a broader conversation about 'militant atheism', it is an example of 'militant atheism'.

When you reject theism, and see it as harmful in the world, it can very easily lead to the quest to eradicate theism. You can choose to eradicate things non-violently or violently. Richard Dawkins wants to eradicate theism non-violently, many communists (and others) wanted to eradicate it violently.

The chain of beliefs: Religion is false -> eradication is desirable -> How to eradicate it?

Not everybody moves along the chain, atheism does not necessarily lead to anything else, but it can.

Anti-theists point to religious extremists for the harms of religion even though religious beliefs don't necessarily lead to extremism.

Religion, as a philosophical position, might lead to extremism. Atheism, as a philosophical position, might lead to extremism.

 

[Laika]

Just out of curiosity, why would you consider claims from communists about atheism as legitimate/relevant to this conversation? Do you grant them representation for atheism in general or something? I mean, does the Westborough Church represent all Christians?

No. Communists do not represent ALL atheists. They represent a tradition of atheist thought that developed out of materialism. They represent a DIFFERENT form of atheism to the one that is common nowday. The importance of the question is that they are being disqualified from being considered at all.

I find it deeply offensive and insulting because what you're doing is virtually erasing communism from history and denying them (including myself) any right to express or defend our views. I don't have to lose my freedom of speech, instead I have people who won't even listen when I actually try to tell them something that is true. I am frustrated because the truth is not enough. it's not Marxist truth; its actual historical truth that can be backed up with evidence. I find that deeply disturbing when I'm debating people who profess reason in addition to violating something I find sacred as the truth is the commonwealth of mankind.

You need to show that atheism ("being without theism") in and of itself is a political theory. This you have not done.

I'm trying to pin point exactly what the issue is so that when I do present evidence, that's why I haven't done it yet.

Communism was not a "political theory", it was a worldview or "Weltanschauung". The correct term for communism in the USSR was "Marxisn-Leninism" (as it was derived from Marx and Lenin, but codified by Stalin). There therefore was no distinction between it's philosophical views regarding atheism and it's political views. Communism has a "philosophy of nature" known as "dialectical materialism", whereas it's political ideas were derived from a philosophy of history known as "historical materialism". Because it advocated an atheist-materialist philosophy of nature, it therefore took to applying this position politically as a form of state atheism and the persecution of religious believers.

 

[leibowde84]

No. Communists do not represent ALL atheists. They represent a tradition of atheist thought that developed out of materialism. They represent a DIFFERENT form of atheism to the one that is common nowday. The importance of the question is that they are being disqualified from being considered at all.

I find it deeply offensive and insulting because what you're doing is virtually erasing communism from history and denying them (including myself) any right to express or defend our views. I don't have to lose my freedom of speech, instead I have people who won't even listen when I actually try to tell them something that is true. I am frustrated because the truth is not enough. it's not Marxist truth; its actual historical truth that can be backed up with evidence. I find that deeply disturbing when I'm debating people who profess reason in addition to violating something I find sacred as the truth is the commonwealth of mankind.



I'm trying to pin point exactly what the issue is so that when I do present evidence, that's why I haven't done it yet.

Communism was not a "political theory", it was a worldview or "Weltanschauung". The correct term for communism in the USSR was "Marxisn-Leninism" (as it was derived from Marx and Lenin, but codified by Stalin). There therefore was no distinction between it's philosophical views regarding atheism and it's political views. Communism has a "philosophy of nature" known as "dialectical materialism", whereas it's political ideas were derived from a philosophy of history known as "historical materialism". Because it advocated an atheist-materialist philosophy of nature, it therefore took to applying this position politically as a form of state atheism and the persecution of religious believers.

My point is that everything stated here speaks to Communism, not atheism. And no one is forcing you to stay silent on Communism. We are commenting on you erroneously blaming atheism for communism.

 

[Augustus]

My point is that everything stated here speaks to Communism, not atheism. And no one is forcing you to stay silent on Communism. We are commenting on you erroneously blaming atheism for communism.

"For Germany, the criticism of religion has been essentially completed, and the criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism." Karl Marx

No one is 'blaming' atheism in general for communism, they are saying that it was an essential part of traditional communism and therefore inseparable from traditional communism, in the specific case of traditional communism.

Do you agree that atheism was a fundamental part of traditional communism, and that because atheism was a fundamental part of traditional communism then this justified violence against religious people and institutions?

Atheism can be a philosophical position, and philosophical positions can be used to justify further action. Agree?

If not, why?