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Might Babylon the Great mean false expectations?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by savagewind, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I was indoctrinated with the view that Babylon the Great must be the empire of false religion. But the description of it was written for believers. False religion has no power over believers.

    I have been led to understand the Bible, especially the 'New Testament,' provides the world with a view of the basis of what is right and what is wrong regarding man's will (selfish work) versus God's will (which is a lot of things that this thread is not about). So when Revelation was written it was a description of something already effective. (rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.)

    It is more than a little obvious to me that words of Revelation were changed sometime since they were written. It is because the world experiences what was warned at Rev. 22:18.

    Might I suggest one word that was changed is "With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries". This one in red. It seems to have been written "porneias". But I think it means "waywardness" as in leaving what is true to go after what is not true.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    What I mean is "false worship" is false only in theory. False expectations are very powerful and are able to lead a person. Where is the world being led?
     
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I interpret it as false teachings, period.. I don't think it means "false only in theory".
    That idea seems like spurious line of reasoning, in order to justify another false interpretation in the NT.

    my .02$
     
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    It is false in theory when it is not proved yet if it works for growth and betterment. That's what I mean.

    OK? If you know my idea is false then you have the correct meaning. How else would you know I am false? So....what it is?
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Do you mean the spurious idea that Christians can't be misled? An obvious ''added'' idea to the NT.
     
  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I did not say Christians can't be misled. Quite the contrary really. That's the point.
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Do you think I am of the opinion believer=Christian?
     
  8. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    ^ this is the spurious idea I'm referring to, beyond that isn't the text self explanatory?
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    A believer is someone who listens to hear for learning. Do you want scriptures?
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I assumed it from the context, if it's not the case then just explain your idea of what a "believer" is
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    No thanx, that definition is vague to the point of being meaningless.
     
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  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I wonder if what I have experienced playing hearts is a common human trait? There are four players in the game hearts. Playing against the computer I can play very fast. Sometimes when my computer opponent plays a card I make a snap decision before the next card is played. Because I have already chosen which card to play, I do not see the next one until my card is played. My mind settles on the FIRST decision. If I wait for all the cards to play I might choose a different one. But my brain does not see the one which would change my mind.

    A true believer is a person who does not decide what comes next. We wait. We do not decide what to do before it is the right time.

    What happens to me when I play happens to people who think they are believers. But to be a believer is to rest on truth.

    I am sure someone else could explain it much better.

    A believer is someone who believes what is being taught by the Spirit. There are believers who are not Christian I suppose.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    According to what I understand about believing is; it must be true to believe it, so unbelievers are more believing that many believers. Because believers will take to heart something that is not true where an unbeliever or an atheist won't.

    I think it makes sense to me that something believed should be true.
     
  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    First, my disclaimer is that I am not a seminary student. I value such education, but I've got to work with what I've got to work with. If somebody wants to put forward a scholarly response, let them please note that it is such when doing so.

    Yes, I also suspect Revelation was about something already in progress.

    I don't know whether the book has been altered, but I disagree about the 'Because' on the basis that James emphasizes that the 'Tongue' is evil. Since the tongue is evil, the verse 22:18 you mentioned may not be literally about adding scriptures to books, but perhaps because people were adding constraints and arguments to the faith.

    I don't know. Wine is an element of catholic communion by which Christians recognize unity. Kings are probably representative of idolatry or factions. The word 'Porneias' refers me to the first idolatry in Israel, the incident involving Moab. (You know the story.) The Israelites were being tempted to leave camp to join Moab, among other things. They could stop their wandering and join Moab, leave the LORD, finally have somewhere to build a bed.

    Following up in Judges, Chronicles, Numbers, Samuel I,II, all the way through the books until you reach Malaki, the story of Israel is one of 'Prostitution' with other gods (literally other 'Strengths') than the LORD. Kings are one of these false gods that seduce Israel, so they make a lot of sense as a symbol in Revelation right along with the adulteries.
     
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    That is very good Brickjectivity.

    Yes! Other strengths. That is what I mean. People feel strong even though they rest their hope on false expectation. It means expectation of anything that will never occur or hoping in something that WILL occur but for a wrong reason.

    Thank you.
     
    #15 savagewind, Jan 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    An expectation that I suspect is false is one where the powerful Jesus comes back to rule for a literal thousand years in the future and will preside over all the Earth to restore God's sovereignty over all living souls.

    Can anyone show me where The Word says this?
     
  17. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    OK. Is it true when nations form it is forever? I have never heard of any nation putting a limit on how long it will be effective. And it will fight for it's life, always with the expectation of success. Is the Harlot pictured riding the kings ie the nations? What is riding them? What does a rider actually do? It leads the horse where it will go. Or does the horse lead the rider? So....false expectation always leads the nations. Does it ever work for real? You know, forever? No, it does not. Why? It is a harlot describe as a bad thing. Revelation 17:1-6
     
  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    It is believed that Babylon the Great is drunk with the blood of the prophets because 'she' killed them (or caused their death). But isn't it because the prophets have delivered something better for the world? Blood means soul. Does she care for the souls of the prophets? Not at all. But the expectation their wonderful words have fostered, she likes those and isn't it she described as the one who believes she will benefit the most? Revelation 18:7 In her heart she boasts, 'I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.'

    THAT is what I call false expectation. Is it expectation? Is it false?
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I have pondered Revelation many years and have seen some of the most amazing explanations of it, but even the best explanations that try to attach its images to events -- are dodgy. Now when I read Revelation 1:1, I no longer think it is the revelation of things to happen but the revelation of Jesus Christ full stop . It is in other words about the name 'Jesus Christ' in my opinion, the nature of the spiritual war that his church fights and it is a continual war corresponding to the destruction of Amalek mentioned in Exodus 17:14. The symbols 'The things shortly to happen' are a revelation of the name 'Jesus Christ'. That's what I think.

    I think this because Revelation identifies the church as a 7 branched lampstand, a symbol of eternity and rebirth. Not only that it is 7, 7-branched lampstands. This is significant, because 7 is about perfection, forgiveness, patience and long suffering. It means something will take time to accomplish. The book Revelation itself can be thought of as 7 templates overlaid upon one another, suggesting the stories represent a war of unlimited duration (not eternal though). The 7 bowls and the 7 trumps etc are really talking about the same things. 7 bowls, 7 trumps, 7 thunders.

    To help explain the use of 7 examine its use in the story of Jericho: Israel must patiently walk around the city Jericho for 7 days, silently, waiting for the LORD to destroy the walls. Meanwhile the Israelis are at risk of having stones dumped onto them by those living in the city. When at last their labor is over, they blow trumpets and the victory comes from the LORD, not from human weapons. Similarly Jesus waits for his Father to put everything under his feet, but he doesn't 'Know the day or the hour'. This is called 'The last Trump' and corresponds with the ends of all the stories in Revelation. The middles of the stories represent our time as well as most of history, and none of the symbols specifically correspond to a particularly segment of time.

    Given that premise, the harlot is one of the enemies being put under Jesus feet, long term as Christians circle their 'Jericho'. The beast corresponds to Amalek, not genetically but spiritually. The harlot and the beast are continual forces that the church has to deal with repeatedly. The woman clothed with the sun is not an event that happens once but something that is always happening, continually even now, and the Harlot is not merely a system but is part of you and me as well as is Amalek. The church was to fight a war with infinite patience until the work was completed, and this was symbolized by Revelation's use of 7. That affects how I see the Great Harlot.
     
    #19 Brickjectivity, Jan 5, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Jeremiah 32:24 "See how the siege ramps are built up to take the city. Because of the sword, famine and plague, the city will be handed over to the Babylonians who are attacking it. What you said has happened, as you now see"
     
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