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Metaphorical vs literal interpretation of punishment laws in Islam.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Feb 1, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Peace everyone.

    But the Prophet left among you the same which other Prophets left among their peoples, because Prophets do not leave them untended (in dark) without a clear path and a standing ensign, namely the Book of your Creator clarifying its permission and prohibitions, its obligations and discretion, its repealing injunctions and the repealed ones, its permissible matters and compulsory ones, its particulars and the general ones, its lessons and illustrations, its long and the short ones, its clear and obscure ones, detailing its abbreviations and clarifying its obscurities.


    In it there are some verses whose knowledge is obligatory and others whose ignorance by the people is permissible. It also contains what appears to be obligatory according to the Book but its repeal is signified by the Prophet’s action (sunnah) or that which appears compulsory according to the Prophet’s action but the Book allows not following it.

    Or there are those which are obligatory in a given time but not allowed not in it's situation. Its prohibitions also differ. Some are major regarding which there exists the threat of fire (Hell), and others are minor for which there are prospects of forgiveness. There are also those of which a small portion is also acceptable (to Allah) but they are capable of being expanded.


    The following is the Arabic:



    وَخَلَّفَ فِيكُمْ مَا خَلَّفَتِ الاْنْبيَاءُ في أُمَمِها، إذْ لَم يَتْرُكُوهُمْ هَمَلاً، بِغَيْر طَريق واضِح، ولاَعَلَمٍ قَائِم.


    كِتَابَ رَبِّكُمْ [فِيكُمْ:] مُبَيِّناً حَلاَلَهُ وَحَرامَهُ، وَفَرَائِضَهُ وَفَضَائِلَهُ، وَنَاسِخَهُ وَمَنْسُوخَهُ، وَرُخَصَهُ وَعَزَائِمَهُ، وَخَاصَّهُ وَعَامَّهُ، وَعِبَرَهُ وَأَمْثَالَهُ، وَمُرْسَلَهُ وَمَحْدُودَهُ، وَمُحْكَمَهُ وَمُتَشَابِهَهُ، مُفَسِّراً جُمَلَهُ، وَمُبَيِّناً غَوَامِضَهُ.

    بَيْنَ مَأْخُوذ مِيثَاقُ عِلْمِهِ، وَمُوَسَّع عَلَى العِبَادِ في جَهْلِهِ، وَبَيْنَ مُثْبَت في الكِتابِ فَرْضُهُ، وَمَعْلُوم في السُّنَّهِ نَسْخُهُ، وَوَاجب في السُّنَّةِ أَخْذُهُ، وَمُرَخَّص في الكِتابِ تَرْكُهُ، وَبَيْنَ وَاجِب بِوَقْتِهِ، وَزَائِل في مُسْتَقْبَلِهِ، وَمُبَايَنٌ بَيْنَ مَحَارِمِهِ، مِنْ كَبير أَوْعَدَ عَلَيْهِ نِيرَانَهُ، أَوْ صَغِير أَرْصَدَ لَهُ غُفْرَانَهُ، وَبَيْنَ مَقْبُول في أَدْنَاهُ، ومُوَسَّع في أَقْصَاهُ.



    "It also contains what appears to be obligatory according to the Book but its repeal is signified by the Prophet’s action (sunnah) or that which appears compulsory according to the Prophet’s action but the Book allows not following it."

    This is from Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 1.



    I will be trying to prove the laws for punishing stealing or fornication, are not what people think. I will propose the following.

    "cut of his hand" means to stop him from stealing but "if he repents and reforms"... then to let them go.

    I propose as well, given we can synthesis the verses about keeping a person in their house if Zina is found about them to be a reformative measure for a certain amount of days. Those days are considered lashes on to them, so they regret what they did. It's also the case with Zina a portion of believers have to bear witness to their crime and punishment, so as to put a public shame aspect as part of the lashing metaphoric meaning.

    I propose the following from Imam Ali (as) which was spoken when he was stroke by a sword of Ibn Muljim:

    "...If I die of this stroke of his, kill him with one similar stroke. Do not mutilate him! I have heard the Prophet, peace be upon him, say: "Mutilate not even a rabid dog." (Nahjul Balagha).


    Is a case where Quran "appears" to be commanding something but really the Sunnah doesn't allow it. In this case, to me, if you combine the verses it means:

    (1) Stop the person either stealing or doing Zina temporarily from the crime (cut of their hand)
    (2) If they repent and reform (or appear to do so) after the reformation time then let them go.
    (3) House Arrest is an effective way to do this. (keep them in their houses till...)
    (4) Public shaming a long with that, is an effective way to do this. (let a portion of believers witness their punishment/torment)
    (5) These days they should scolded not literally like as in cutting their backs or hands so as for them to die from infection (highly likely in those times) or be mutilated, but rather, scold has a metaphoric meaning, that this is a reformation process where they should be taught far reaching words that condemn their behaviour.

    As for (5), I can bring examples, one of Imams (as) is reported to have said "I like to scold the head of my followers till they all become Fuqaha (people who deeply understand religion)".

    There is also a hadith, from Imam Ali (as) about if children should be beaten if they disobey parents and do bad things. And his reply was no, for it's only animals who words cannot be reformed by understanding and need to be literally beaten.

    Edge case: What would it mean then to not let compassion keep you from punishing them (in case of Zina). Reply: It can be psychological torment, you might want to let them go, not see them publically shamed, or not under house arrest for 80 days where they are scolded for what they've done.

    I'm serious in this regard, because, public shaming is hard enough for a person to take. Believe me, I've seen in my life time, some person's crime come out in the open and people know about it, and no hudood punishment or anything but the person nearly psychologically broke down.










     
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  2. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    If you say something like “cut of his hand” when you mean “do not cut of his hand” you are seriously lacking basic communication skills, and to attribute such lack of knowledge to an all-knowing omniscient God is to make a mockery of God.
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I think the Quran was written in a way, that there can be the worst interpretation for it possible. And the best interpretation for it possible.

    The thing is, as far as this line goes, to me it's clearly metaphorical aside from ethical side of the argument, that it's singular, while everyone has two hands and it doesn't specify which part and how much of the arm/hand should be cut off.
     
  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Notice it also didn't say "cut off a hand" either.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Therefore, linguistically, it is clearly metaphorical. So there was no deception going on. Lashing on the other hand could have more arguments on your lines, but other verses, talk about keeping them in the house. Therefore if you put all the verses together, you can come up with the notion I came up with.
     
  6. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    When healthy humans living on a spiritual planet that they name as God O or Allah, and say that no other body is before the natural planet, as a male speaking a science theme in creation....the ENTITY O...then he did.

    When a healthy and natural spiritual human says, I chose to do science, to change that body/entity O the stone....and then was harmed for doing that act of evil.

    Then he did.....and as it is not literal, it is discussing human cause and effects, based on a very real historic male review. A bio life, a natural spiritual human being male invented the use of radiation sciences. As that natural life, from his bio life form existing and thinking as a self, a human owning his own hands, body and legs, and his head.

    Therefore if you begin to be unnaturally attacked, and it was not a human owned or applied attack, then it was described in the best method of the experience. Being irradiated attacked for being the human Inventor of the sciences and not heeding spiritual self advice.....to only honour natural history and natural spirit.
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Brother for the life of me I can't understand the relevance of your post to this topic!
     
  8. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Simply self male advised as a human, you did it to yourself, so told stories about how you harmed your own natural life body, as a male, as a human, living in the experience of changing natural Earth O the entity as a history.

    All religious ideals are creative science themes...and the relativity of how a male harmed his own human life body, as karmic response...what you give out, you get back. The harm to his own natural life. The radiation effect.
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's getting more confusing I Don't understand the relevance!
     
  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Since when does the individual self, not own self representation in any community, as an extended family?

    As that extended family, the spiritual commitment as a Father ideal is to cause no harm, not spiritually nor emotionally to your own children. Which extends to the greater world community.

    But if you male self invented science and extra radiation effects to change the Deity/entity you claimed was Holy O the stone body of God, fusion or Allah, fusion and said, which included self...that this body was origin, it was first, above and beyond your own self presence. Then you taught your own male community to never make changes to that body.

    That it was HOLY.

    Now to learn karmic effect, to be punished, you only got punished by the entity/cold stone radiation history for doing scientific conversions on the body of it.

    As a male, you are not stone O the natural body....so stone as applied, cause and effect in the image of its Creator in a ground reaction attacked your own male and then female life body.

    How we first were spiritually harmed in natural life....as the original teachings how the entity God or Allah taught humans a lesson in life.

    For our spiritual natural bio self, human life never chose to be harmed, as rational self advice.

    Then males applied human laws as a copying effect to claim and so I will punish you as my God had before me. As relative reasoning for why punishment was a copy effect of scientific human male choices in natural history.....as it was taught and told.
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Sister, I don't see the relevance.
     
  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Humans argue information for sake of self status. Meaning that they believe that their information is more important to be taught.

    Information for a human says that once we all owned the same equal natural life. So then you have to apply human historical reasoning for why that status changed.

    Information for conscious psyche says, that a male group original science selves, as the same DNA ownership began to think consciously amongst their selves. So each one self owned something to say, shared it with the group. So males claim in self, Leader to think first...yet he shares information equally.

    How that format was imposed for males as the first scientist.

    He says O the information entity and planet, nothing comes before it, for he says, it is stone O. If stone did not exist at that entity, no atmospheric evolution would exist either. So the story says, begins in science and ends in a science statement that stone is Holy....so never change it.

    He did change it by choice of nuclear OCCULT Ufo metallic mass radiation causation.....which self was attacked by, so he said he got punished by the Creator for not heeding spiritual self advice. Of natural and equality.

    Then in punishment to say, I was taught by the Creator, meaning radiation effect/attack on the spiritual life, bio body, blood cells, and psyche/consciousness, that if any male did anything wrong in our equal life, we would punish him like the Creator first punished us for doing science. How punishment of the types were implemented due to scientific history.

    Therefore when you talk/discuss relativity in creation by a Creator it owns a total male human historical story first....seeing they invented science and its discussions.
     
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Sister, the Quran is for all times, but interpretation is never to be blindly followed.
     
  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    I hope that you can persuade your brothers who misquote it then, and infer it is reason to harm others. Just as many creation religious interpretations believe it rightful, as based on scientific principles that involve destruction by chosen male acts.
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I hope so too.
     
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