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Featured Messianic cover-up in Jewish dating (AM).

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Whilst flipping through Ussher's 'The Annals of the World', I came across an interesting appendix (G) entitled 'The Seder Olam Rabbah - Why Jewish dating is different'.

    The appendix states the following,
    'As Old Testament Scripture is the basis for Seder Olam dating, we would suppose the Jewish chronology to be similar to that of Ussher's and thus expect them to place the creation date around 6000 years ago. Yet rather than 4004 BC, the Seder Olam places creation at 3761. The question thus becomes: On what basis do the Jews number their years such that a 243-year shortfall occurs?'

    Further on, the appendix states, 'Thus, the Seder Olam depicts the Kingdom of Persia as lasting a mere 53 years from 374 to 321 BC, rather than about 207 years (538-331 BC).
    Over the centuries, orthodox rabbis have differed somewhat in their listing of the Persian kings, but they generally have not departed from the 52/53-year parameter established within the Seder Olam.
    The result of this shorting of the span of the Persian Empire is that the paramount prophecy and major foundation block of chronology - the Daniel 9:25 seventy weeks of years - has become dislodged. Furthermore, this shorting as perpetuated within the the Seder Olam is deliberate!'

    So, the suggestion here, is that Jewish rabbis have deliberately set out to deceive other Jews. Why? So that the prophecy of Daniel 9:25 does not lead Jews to 29 AD and to Jesus as the Messiah! Instead, rabbis point to another messiah, Simon Bar Kokhba (Cocheba) who was killed about 100 years later.

    How do Jews, and others, respond to this?
     
  2. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    *** Thread moved to General Religious Debates ***

    Because it was definitely not appropriate for a non-debate forum. Thanks!
     
  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Ok now.
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Yes, the Jews who don't believe that the passage is speaking about the Messiah altogether, changed the dating so as not to coincide with one of the opinions that Christians have about the year the crucifixion supposedly occurred.

    Makes sense.
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I think that would be a bad idea. I think that if the subject interests you, it behooves you to read up on it and check the research in order to understand what the findings are, not what someone else's summary of the findings is.
    The Challenge of Jewish History - Jewish Books - Feldheim Publishers
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It's not quite that simple.
    The change in dating from the Seleucid era (312 BC) to Anno Mundi occurred in the Middle Ages in Europe. Maybe there was good reason to recoil from the intrusions of anti-semitic Christians, but not to deceive others regarding the Word of God. This decision to miscalculate the times laid down in scripture has the effect of obscuring important prophecies, not just in Daniel.
    Genesis is clearly a prologue to the whole of scripture and indicates a day/thousand year plan. More reliable commentators are the ancient Jewish sages, whose voices we hear elsewhere, who did not fear Christian intrusion, and were much less defensive in their conclusions. IMO, some of them correctly read the times and were prepared to give the supporting evidence from scripture.
    In the NT, we have supporting evidence of the overall plan in the words of 2 Peter 3: 8-16.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    In case anyone is unaware of the Talmudic references to the discussions about the Messiah's coming in Seder Nezikin Vol iii Sanhedrin (97a-97b), here is an extract.

    'R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. [Isaiah 2:11] Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [Hosea 6:2]
    It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day; and it is further said, A psalm and song for the Sabbath day, [Psalm 92:1] meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath - and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are as yesterday when it is past. [Psalm 90:4]
    The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. [IMO Israel's temporary rejection see Hosea ch.5/6 / Church age begins]

    This Talmudic discussion is clearly based on a careful calculation of times from Adam onwards and was not affected by the later intentional cutting of years from the Jewish calendar. As such, IMO, it provides a far more accurate foundation for Messianic expectation, and for watchfulness.
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No you're mistaken. The Seder Olam was written in the second century. A number of Talmudic statements indicate this to be the accepted Rabbinic dating from well before the Middle Age Jewry in Europe. Regardless, whether this change in dating represents the actual dating or an altered one, what it doesn't change is the interpretation of any prophecies.
     
  11. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Just a couple more quotes from that same section of the talmud:

    1. This is as in that practice of Rabbi Zeira, who, when he would find Sages who were engaging in discussions about the coming of the Messiah, said to them: Please, I ask of you, do not delay his coming by calculating the end of days. As we learn in a baraita: There are three matters that come only by means of diversion of attention from those matters, and these are they: The Messiah, a lost item, and a scorpion.

    2. The Gemara asks: What is the meaning of the phrase “And it declares [veyafe’aḥ] of the end, and does not lie”? Rabbi Shmuel bar Naḥmani saysthat Rabbi Yonatan says: May those who calculate the end of days be cursed [tippaḥ], as they would say once the end of days that they calculated arrived and the Messiah did not come, that he will no longer come at all. Rather, the proper behavior is to continue to wait for his coming, as it is stated: “Though it tarry, wait for it.” Lest you say we are expectantly awaiting the end of days and the Holy One, Blessed be He, is not awaiting the end of days and does not want to redeem His people, the verse states: “And therefore will the Lord wait, to be gracious to you; and therefore will He be exalted, to have mercy upon you; for the Lord is a God of judgment; happy are all they who wait for Him” (Isaiah 30:18).

     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Rosends, what you've added is quite in keeping with the words of Jesus who says in Matthew's Gospel;
    'But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'
    Further on in the chapter, Jesus says,
    'Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.'

    IMO,we may not know the exact time of the Lord's return [coming] but the readiness, watchfulness, and expectation [according to the season] is quite in keeping with scripture. Noah was given warning of God's intention to destroy the earth (Genesis 6:13), and Noah acted as he was commanded (Genesis 6:22). Why would the LORD furnish us with all the seasonal clues to His coming and then choose a completely different time to appear? Why give us the thousand year/day prophecies if we are not to heed them?
    In the NT, Simeon and Anna both had prophetic knowledge of the coming Messiah (Luke 2:25,26 and Luke 2:36-38) and recognised him as a child.
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Tumah, I'm not questioning the date when the Seder Olam was written. But the effect of shortening God's days, intentionally, is bound to lead to confusion.

    Take, for example, one of the passages quoted in Sanhedrin 97a - Hosea 6:2. Kattina and Abaye are both correct because they are using 'desolation' to mean different things. Abaye is referring to Israel being desolate for two thousand years, then returning to the land and being revived. The third day, in this context, must therefore refer to the present millennium.

    If we follow the dating of Jewish AM, the return of Israel to its land would still be a future hope. Instead, we have heightened expectations because the end of the sixth thousandth year has been reached. The only full day remaining in the prophetic week is the Sabbath, and the rest, or peace, of that day cannot come until the Messiah return.
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You are claiming that there are specific clues as to time even though the text of the talmud says not to try and compute the time. Then you skip the part which explains why trying to compute things is a bad idea.
    You should read all the stuff in the talmud instead of just quoting one small part:

    "That is the course that history was to take, but due to our sins that time frame increased. "
     
  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    2 problems -- one is that the talmud actually doesn't demand that things be on a 6000 year cycle, only that the messiah won't come before a 6000 year grouping is done (the earliest time) -- the latest time (the ketz) is what the talmud says should not be computed,

    2, the rabbis then spend pages on discussing all the signs that one would use to see it coming. If there are all those signs and they haven'tt aken place, why would someone think that it is time for the messiah yet?

    so the notion of "return" is invalidated by the rabbis - why invoke the talmud but only selectively?
     
  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    If we follow the dating of Jewish AM, the return of Israel to its land would still be a future hope. Instead, we have heightened expectations because the end of the sixth thousandth year has been reached. The only full day remaining in the prophetic week is the Sabbath, and the rest, or peace, of that day cannot come until the Messiah return.[/QUOTE]
    No, that's not what either of them are talking about. They aren't talking about the Messianic Age at all. They're both talking about what happens after the sixth millennium, which is after the Messianic Age. Whether we use our dating or include the additional 165 years, we have not yet reached the end of the sixth millennium.
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    'Return' is clearly invalidated by the rabbis because they failed to accept the first advent! But I agree that the Messiah cannot come [return] until after the 6th thousand year period. It should not go unnoticed that the third pairing of years (5,6) is described by one rabbi as 'the messianic' era. There was, therefore, a messianic expectation amongst some, which in retrospect, failed to satisfy all the rabbinical requirements (many of which should only have been applied to the second coming, which as Christians and Jews we now await).

    Acts 1:10,11 'And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.'

    But maybe the national Jewish rejection had to occur so that Gentiles might be included in God's grace - the Church. In 2 Peter 3:9 it says, 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [to return and judge], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'

    As much as you may not like me using the Talmud, I have selected passages that are relevant to the day/thousand year discussion.
    In Hosea 5:14,15 it says,
    'For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
    I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.' Then follows the response ch 6:1-3.
    When do you imagine these events are to occur? What time period is covered? What do you understand the 'offence' to be?
    6:2 says 'After two days will he revive us: in the third day will he raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.'
    How do you explain these passages? Is not the 'revival' of Ephraim and Judah also a return to the land?

    Tumah says that the six thousand years is not yet at an end, and he may be right. But if six thousand years is not yet at an end, then it must be very near. Bishop Ussher's calculation of chronology, and the advent of Jesus Christ, places us at a near-point. I guess world events will prove the veracity of scripture and the importance of the juncture at which mankind now stands.
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Or because they know better and have all the things you are cited as proof that the messiah simply hasn't come yet. So using them to substantiate a timing for an event they would not support seems dishonest.
    The third pairing, the messianic period is also contextualized with the phrase "That is the course that history was to take, but due to our sins that time frame increased. " So any computation and expectation based on those numbers is in error.

    The problem is in your using it incompletely and selectively. That's not an honest use of a source. What is equally problematic is your using anything from the gospels which has zero validity.
    I don't try to imagine when -- the text requires that all of Israel repent and say 100 blessings everyday in order to bring these things about. It isn't a calendar date but a national mindset.
    This speaks of the building of a third temple in Jerusalem after 2 destructions and exiles. Hasn't happened yet.
     
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This is the course that history DID take, exactly as stated! It is not an error!The existence of the Church is evidence of that Messianic body of believing Jews and Gentiles. It IS therefore the Messianic era.
    An unrepentant Judah was expelled from their land for a period of approximately two thousand years. As the Lord said, 'I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face:' (These years are described as a 'mystery' in the NT because they do not appear explicitly in OT prophecy - see Romans 11:25,26)
    And again, 'After two days will he revive us: in the third day will he raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.'
    If this applies to the Temple as a material structure, then why use the pronoun US? The whole context of Hosea 6:1-3 demonstrates that the pronoun US refers to Ephraim and Judah.
    My concern, if I were a Jew, would be the substance of the colon in Hosea 6:2. NT scriptures indicate that the seventieth seven of Daniel's weeks will include a Great Tribulation.
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Therefore the existence of Raelians is evidence that Rael is the promised deliverer? Sabateans existed also. So?
    Are you saying that the exile is over? Because it isn't.
    Those are 2 separate statements. The first talking about exile until repentance (which hasn't happened) and the second about the 2 destructions/exiles and the 3rd temple after the redemption. Still no 3rd temple. Still in exile.
    That was addressed a long time ago...
    "He will strengthen us from the two retributions which have passed over us from the two sanctuaries that were destroyed."
    Colon? Can you point that out to me...
    יחינו מימים ביום השלישי יקמנו ונחיה לפניו

    thanks.
     
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