Messiah the son of Joseph

[dybmh]

Avodah Zarah ( translation: 'Service to Other' ).

Just in case any of my friends have been following my misadventures here on RF... guess who advocates for Avodah Zarah more than anyone else?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Actually, I think that on the whole there is an intentional attempt to distance/eradicate Chisrtianity from Judiasm. But I don't see it any differently than any other Avodah Zarah ( translation: 'Service to Other' ).

OK....

I don't know for sure. And, I'm a little afraid to offer my speculation. Here's why:

1) I'm not a Rabbi. I'm not qualified to offer an answer.
2) I am a Jewish amateur enthusiast, and that makes me even lower than an ignoramus. I know both too much *and* too little to speak about the topics in this thread.

However, if you want me to speculate in spite of that, let me know and I'll try to offer my own personal opinion on the matter of attempting to erase the mystery of The Jewish Messiah from Judaism at large.

Not many.

But I did.

Again, I'm not a Rabbi, but I can offer my own bizarre take on this phenomena if you want. But, it does feel a little off topic.

If you want my opinion, just, reply to this post and ask me specific questions, and I will do my best to answer them honestly and completely. My only request will be that you don't quote me on any of my answers, and that you realize that my answers may be very very different than any other Jew out there.

Thank you for your honesty. And please extend my apologies to all the honest scholars who feel I've impugned their good character.

By the way, the Israelite that had no guile was also able to recognize Jesus as 'the Son of God' and 'King of Israel'. [John 1:49]

 

[dybmh]

Thank you for your honesty. And please extend my apologies to all the honest scholars who feel I've impugned their good character.

Thank you for saying that. it was very gracious of you.

By the way, the Israelite that had no guile was also able to recognize Jesus as 'the Son of God' and 'King of Israel'. [John 1:49]

Yes, I've read the book. Multiple times now. { sigh }. It's *not* one of my favorites....

 

[The Anointed]

Well, if that's how you want to read it, that's fine. The talmud in tractate Sotah understands it differently, and various rabbinic commentators understand it differently based on the second explanation in the talmud. But no, hey, your idea is cute also. Why should I cede any interpretive authority to the experts from 2000 years ago when I have you to invent something now?

1 Chronicles 3: 5;
ה וְאֵלֶּה נוּלְּדוּ-לוֹ, בִּירוּשָׁלָיִם: שִׁמְעָא וְשׁוֹבָב וְנָתָן וּשְׁלֹמֹה, אַרְבָּעָה, לְבַת-שׁוּעַ, בַּת-עַמִּיאֵל. 5 And these were born unto him (David) in Jerusalem: Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bath-shua the daughter of Ammiel;

I suppose you believe that David actually sired all four of Bathsheba's sons, even knowing that Solomon was the youngest of the four, and Solomon was the second and only surviving son born of the adulterous union between David and Bathsheba?

Shimea, Shobab, and Nathan the ancestor of Jesus, were the adopted sons of David, and were Levite descendants of Bathsheba the daughter of Eliam=Ammiel, the son of Obed-edom a descendant of Moses through his second wife the Ethiopian daughter of Hobab the Kenite, the second father-in-law of Moses, and also his brother-in-law, in that he, like Moses had married one of Jethro's daughters. Both Hobab and Moses were sons of Jethro, or should we say sons-in-law.

יא וְחֶבֶר הַקֵּינִי נִפְרָד מִקַּיִן, מִבְּנֵי חֹבָב חֹתֵן מֹשֶׁה; וַיֵּט אָהֳלוֹ, עַד-אֵילוֹן בצענים (בְּצַעֲנַנִּים) אֲשֶׁר אֶת-קֶדֶשׁ. 11 Now Heber the Kenite had severed himself from the Kenites, even from the children of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, and had pitched his tent as far as Elon-bezaanannim, which is by Kedesh.

 

[rosends]

1 Chronicles 3: 5;
ה וְאֵלֶּה נוּלְּדוּ-לוֹ, בִּירוּשָׁלָיִם: שִׁמְעָא וְשׁוֹבָב וְנָתָן וּשְׁלֹמֹה, אַרְבָּעָה, לְבַת-שׁוּעַ, בַּת-עַמִּיאֵל. 5 And these were born unto him (David) in Jerusalem: Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bath-shua the daughter of Ammiel;

I suppose you believe that David actually sired all four of Bathsheba's sons, even knowing that Solomon was the youngest of the four, and Solomon was the second and only surviving son born of the adulterous union between David and Bathsheba?

Shimea, Shobab, and Nathan the ancestor of Jesus, were the adopted sons of David, and were Levite descendants of Bathsheba the daughter of Eliam=Ammiel, the son of Obed-edom a descendant of Moses through his second wife the Ethiopian daughter of Hobab the Kenite, the second father-in-law of Moses, and also his brother-in-law, in that he, like Moses had married one of Jethro's daughters. Both Hobab and Moses were sons of Jethro, or should we say sons-in-law.

יא וְחֶבֶר הַקֵּינִי נִפְרָד מִקַּיִן, מִבְּנֵי חֹבָב חֹתֵן מֹשֶׁה; וַיֵּט אָהֳלוֹ, עַד-אֵילוֹן בצענים (בְּצַעֲנַנִּים) אֲשֶׁר אֶת-קֶדֶשׁ. 11 Now Heber the Kenite had severed himself from the Kenites, even from the children of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, and had pitched his tent as far as Elon-bezaanannim, which is by Kedesh.

Again, if you want to innovate your personal interpretation, that's nice. Here's some light reading on Chron 1 3:5
" לא מנאם כסדר תולדותם כי שלמה היה הראשון"
and
"ולא נזכרו אלו הארבעה בנים כסדר תולדותם, שהרי שלמה היה הגדול כי הוא היה הבן הראשון שהיה לבת שבע מדוד אחרי מות הילד וכמו שכתוב וינחם דוד את בת שבע אשתו ויבא אליה ותלד בן ויקרא שלמה שמו"
Once you start wrong, you end wronger. But best of luck to you.

 

[The Anointed]

Again, if you want to innovate your personal interpretation, that's nice. Here's some light reading on Chron 1 3:5
" לא מנאם כסדר תולדותם כי שלמה היה הראשון"
and
"ולא נזכרו אלו הארבעה בנים כסדר תולדותם, שהרי שלמה היה הגדול כי הוא היה הבן הראשון שהיה לבת שבע מדוד אחרי מות הילד וכמו שכתוב וינחם דוד את בת שבע אשתו ויבא אליה ותלד בן ויקרא שלמה שמו"
Once you start wrong, you end wronger. But best of luck to you.

And that's the direction in which you are heading, as your erroneous beliefs are compounded by your rabbinic erroneous commentaries.

You should spend more time studying the Hebrew scriptures rather that your erroneous rabbinic commentaries.

If you believe that Nathan was a biological son of King David, please explain Zechariah 12: 12;
יב וְסָפְדָה הָאָרֶץ, מִשְׁפָּחוֹת מִשְׁפָּחוֹת לְבָד: מִשְׁפַּחַת בֵּית-דָּוִיד לְבָד, וּנְשֵׁיהֶם לְבָד--מִשְׁפַּחַת בֵּית-נָתָן לְבָד, וּנְשֵׁיהֶם לְבָד. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; etc.

 

[rosends]

And that's the direction in which you are heading, as your erroneous beliefs are compounded by your rabbinic erroneous commentaries.

You should spend more time studying the Hebrew scriptures rather that your erroneous rabbinic commentaries.

If you believe that Nathan was a biological son of King David, please explain Zechariah 12: 12;
יב וְסָפְדָה הָאָרֶץ, מִשְׁפָּחוֹת מִשְׁפָּחוֹת לְבָד: מִשְׁפַּחַת בֵּית-דָּוִיד לְבָד, וּנְשֵׁיהֶם לְבָד--מִשְׁפַּחַת בֵּית-נָתָן לְבָד, וּנְשֵׁיהֶם לְבָד. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; etc.

You need some new material instead of asking things that have been answered for a long time...
You can choose your answer
"וזכר ראשונה משפחת בית דוד בכלל ואחר כך פרט כל אחד מבניו שכולם יספדו עליו"

or

"כל משפחה יעשו הספד בפ"ע, וימצאו אז משפחת בית דוד שהוא כולל בני דוד, ומשפחת בית נתן שהיה מבני דוד שתהיה אז משפחה מצויינת בפ"ע"

or even

" ואלה המשפחות הנזכרות כמו נתן ושמעי יהיו גדולות וידועות באותו הזמן"

You want to dismiss these voices because they don't comport with the conclusions you want to reach. You should spend less time being convinced that your literal reading of some translation is correct. You run into really basic mistakes.

 

[Wandering Monk]

And that's the direction in which you are heading, as your erroneous beliefs are compounded by your rabbinic erroneous commentaries.

You should spend more time studying the Hebrew scriptures rather that your erroneous rabbinic commentaries.

If you believe that Nathan was a biological son of King David, please explain Zechariah 12: 12;
יב וְסָפְדָה הָאָרֶץ, מִשְׁפָּחוֹת מִשְׁפָּחוֹת לְבָד: מִשְׁפַּחַת בֵּית-דָּוִיד לְבָד, וּנְשֵׁיהֶם לְבָד--מִשְׁפַּחַת בֵּית-נָתָן לְבָד, וּנְשֵׁיהֶם לְבָד. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; etc.

Funny. Telling a Jew how to read their scriptures. It is to laugh.

 

[The Anointed]

Funny. Telling a Jew how to read their scriptures. It is to laugh.

When the heads of different countries, who cannot understand the Jewish language, are listening to a Jew speaking in his native tongue at a convention of the United Nations, how do they understand what that person is saying?

 

[Harel13]

Shimea, Shobab, and Nathan the ancestor of Jesus, were the adopted sons of David, and were Levite descendants of Bathsheba the daughter of Eliam=Ammiel, the son of Obed-edom a descendant of Moses through his second wife the Ethiopian daughter of Hobab the Kenite, the second father-in-law of Moses, and also his brother-in-law, in that he, like Moses had married one of Jethro's daughters. Both Hobab and Moses were sons of Jethro, or should we say sons-in-law.

@The Anointed thoughts on the following verses?

"And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said: 'Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?'" (2 Samuel 11:3)
"Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maacathite, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite" (2 Samuel 23:34)

 

[The Anointed]

@The Anointed thoughts on the following verses?

"And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said: 'Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?'" (2 Samuel 11:3)
"Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maacathite, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite" (2 Samuel 23:34)

1 Chronicles 3: 5; and these were the children born to him there: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon. These four were by Bathsheba daughter of Ammiel, who in 2 Samuel 11: 3; is also called Eliam. Uriah the husband of Bathsheba, who was the daughter of Ammiel/Eliam, was later to die at the order of David.

Ammiel/Eliam is A Levite, the sixth son of Obed-edom. He was a gatekeeper who shared responsibility for the storehouses of the house of Jehovah during David’s time.—1Ch 26:4, 5, 12-15.

1 Chronicles 26: 4-5. Obed-Edom also had sons: Shemaiah the firstborn, Jehozabad the second, Joah the third, Sakar the fourth, Nethanel the fifth, 'AMMIEL' the sixth, Issachar the seventh and Peullethai the eighth. (For God had blessed Obed-Edom.)

 

[Harel13]

1 Chronicles 3: 5; and these were the children born to him there: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon. These four were by Bathsheba daughter of Ammiel

Now now, don't change the verse, it says Bat-shua, not Bat-sheva. We identify the two as one and the same because of the children.

1 Chronicles 3: 5; and these were the children born to him there: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon. These four were by Bathsheba daughter of Ammiel, who in 2 Samuel 11: 3; is also called Eliam. Uriah the husband of Bathsheba, who was the daughter of Ammiel/Eliam, was later to die at the order of David.

Ammiel/Eliam is A Levite, the sixth son of Obed-edom. He was a gatekeeper who shared responsibility for the storehouses of the house of Jehovah during David’s time.—1Ch 26:4, 5, 12-15.

1 Chronicles 26: 4-5. Obed-Edom also had sons: Shemaiah the firstborn, Jehozabad the second, Joah the third, Sakar the fourth, Nethanel the fifth, 'AMMIEL' the sixth, Issachar the seventh and Peullethai the eighth. (For God had blessed Obed-Edom.)

But nothing you stated is presented as stronger evidence in favor of her father being Amiel son of Oved-Edom and not Eliam son of Achitophel.

As usual.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

So, according to R. Saadia, there is no guarantee that the Ben Yosef will ever come, but if he does then he will pave the way and the Ben David messiah will directly appear. As that second part hasn't happened, how can you say that Jesus fulfilled the former role?

Jesus spoke of a man who will come. The man with a rod of iron.

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Revelation 2:27

 

[The Anointed]

Now now, don't change the verse, it says Bat-shua, not Bat-sheva. We identify the two as one and the same because of the children.

But nothing you stated is presented as stronger evidence in favor of her father being Amiel son of Oved-Edom and not Eliam son of Achitophel.

As usual.

Harel13 wrote: "Now now, don't change the verse, it says Bat-shua, not Bat-sheva. We identify the two as one and the same because of the children."

Of course Bat-shua and Bat-sheba are one and the same mother, who was the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-edom the Levite, and mother of Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, the three stepsons of David and of his biological son Solomon, the last and youngest son of Bat-shua, Bat-sheva,

 

[Harel13]

Harel13 wrote: "Now now, don't change the verse, it says Bat-shua, not Bat-sheva. We identify the two as one and the same because of the children."

Of course Bat-shua and Bat-sheba are one and the same mother, who was the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-edom the Levite, and mother of Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, the three stepsons of David and of his biological son Solomon, the last and youngest son of Bat-shua, Bat-sheva,

Sad, really. You have zero proof that Amiel/Eliam is the son of Oved-Edom and not the son of Achitophel so you just repeat the same again and again, hoping it'll somehow be more convincing every time. Hint: not working.

I also have zero proof that Amiel/Eliam is the son of Achitophel and not the son of Oved-Edom, but at least I acknowledge both possibilities. You don't.

 

[The Anointed]

Sad, really. You have zero proof that Amiel/Eliam is the son of Oved-Edom and not the son of Achitophel so you just repeat the same again and again, hoping it'll somehow be more convincing every time. Hint: not working.

I also have zero proof that Amiel/Eliam is the son of Achitophel and not the son of Oved-Edom, but at least I acknowledge both possibilities. You don't.

Jesus is chosen as our King and High Priest by the Lord God our savior.

Joseph ben Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary and who was only the step-father of Jesus, was a descendant of Solomon through the cursed line of Jehoiachin, of whom we read in Jeremiah 22: 30; “This man is condemned to lose his children, to be a man who will never succeed. He will have no descendants who will rule in Judah as David’s successor. I, the Lord, have spoken.” This would appear to rule out the hope of any son of Joseph ben Jacob ever sitting on the throne of David, whereas Jesus the son of Joseph ben Heli=Alexander Helios was a legitimate successor to that throne.

Jesus the descendant of King David, has been chosen as our 'HIGH PRIEST' through the genetic line of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios /Heli, and biological Father of Jesus, and descendant (Through Shealtiel the son of Neri a descendant) of Nathan the adopted son of King David and Bio son of Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-edom, from the priestly tribe of Levi, and chosen as our King, through Joseph the son of Jacob, the step-father of Jesus, and a descendant (Through Shealtiel the son of Tamar a female descendant of Solomon) the biological son of King David, from the kingly tribe of Judah and Bathsheba the Levite descendant of Obed-edom.

David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.

With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).

Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

Hebrew 5: 10; “And God declared him (Jesus) to be high priest according to the priestly order of Melchizedek.” Melchizedek held the titles of both King and high priest. Hebrew 5: 5; “In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God said to him, ‘You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father.’”

You have no interest in discovering the truths as revealed in the Holy Scripture, but only in attempting to defend your ridiculous and erroneous beliefs.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus is chosen as our King and High Priest by the Lord God our savior.

Jesus the descendant of King David, has been chosen as our 'HIGH PRIEST' through the genetic line of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios /Heli, and biological Father of Jesus, and descendant (Through Shealtiel the son of Neri a descendant) of Nathan the adopted son of King David and Bio son of Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-edom, from the priestly tribe of Levi, and chosen as our King, through Joseph the son of Jacob, the step-father of Jesus, and a descendant (Through Shealtiel the son of Tamar a female descendant of Solomon) the biological son of King David, from the kingly tribe of Judah and Bathsheba the Levite descendant of Obed-edom.

David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.

With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).

Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

Hebrew 5: 10; “And God declared him (Jesus) to be high priest according to the priestly order of Melchizedek.” Melchizedek held the titles of both King and high priest. Hebrew 5: 5; “In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God said to him, ‘You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father.’”

You have no interest in discovering the truths as revealed in the Holy Scripture, but only in attempting to defend your ridiculous and erroneous beliefs.

I've requested multiple times that you bring proof that Amiel/Eliam is not the son of Achitophel. Instead you stick your head in the ground and shout some stuff about Jesus, which is not at all what I was asking about. The reason, as we both know, is that you have no proof for your argument. You have verses, I have verses. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[The Anointed]

I've requested multiple times that you bring proof that Amiel/Eliam is not the son of Achitophel. Instead you stick your head in the ground and shout some stuff about Jesus, which is not at all what I was asking about. The reason, as we both know, is that you have no proof for your argument. You have verses, I have verses. Nothing more and nothing less.

The only difference it that you have absolutely no proof that your "Eliam the son of Achitophel," is the husband of Bathsheba of the tribe of Levi.

Nighty, night young fellow.

 

[Harel13]

The only difference it that you have absolutely no proof that your "Eliam the son of Achitophel," is the husband of Bathsheba of the tribe of Levi.

I literally wrote a few posts ago:

I also have zero proof that Amiel/Eliam is the son of Achitophel and not the son of Oved-Edom, but at least I acknowledge both possibilities. You don't.

We're in the same boat on this point. But only one of us is in denial, and it's not me.

 

[The Anointed]

The truth of your "lord" is in denial about bringing evidence about your various scriptural claims. Why would I ever want to be a part of that "truth"?

I suppose that you are next going to try to tell us that Hobab the Kennite, a descendant of Ham (The swarthy dark coloured one from Africa) who married one of the daughters of Jethro the Midianite, who was a descendant of Abraham through his second wife Keturah the descendant of Shem, and who then became the son, or rather, the son-in-law to Jethro and the brother-in-law to Moses, who also married one of Jethro's daughters, and that Moses did not later marry Hobab's Ethiopian daughter and then became his Father-in-law also, as revealed in Judges 4: 11.

Go and annoy someone else with your erroneous and ridiculous beliefs