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Featured Messiah the son of Joseph

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I find it remarkable that Jewish scholars, using the Hebrew scriptures alone, have managed to develop such a vast body of knowledge that contains all the seeds of truth.

    The great unsolved mystery for Jews seems to have been the Church, the body of Christ. In the prophecies of Isaiah, for example, the first and second advents of Christ are sometimes hidden in a single sentence. There is no clearly defined Church Age. Not surprisingly, rabbis have had great difficulty explaining how Messiah the son of Joseph could be so different from Messiah son of David.

    I recently came across this interesting passage in the Talmud.

    Sukkah 51b-52a.
    'What is the cause of mourning [mentioned in the last cited verse - Zech.12:12]? - R. Dosa and the Rabbis differ on the point. One explained, The cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, and the other explained, The cause is the slaying of the Evil Inclination.
    It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse, And they shall look upon me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son [Zech. 12:10], but according to him who explains the cause to be the slaying of the Evil Inclination, is this [it may be objected] an occasion for mourning? Is it not rather an occasion for rejoicing? Why then should they weep? - [The explanation is] as R. Judah expounded: In the time to come the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring the Evil Inclination and slay it in the presence of the righteous and the wicked. To the righteous it will have the appearance of a towering hill, and to the wicked it will have the appearance of a hair thread. Both the former and the latter will weep; the righteous will weep, saying, 'How were we able to overcome such a towering hill!' The wicked also will weep saying, 'How is it that we were unable to conquer this hair thread!' And the Holy One, blessed be He, will also marvel together with them, as it is said, Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, it shall also be marvellous in My eyes.' [Zech. 8:6]

    In another book, A Rabbinic Anthology [Selected by C.G. Montefiore and H.Loewe], there was an extract from a Midrashic compilation known as the Pesikta Rabbathi which describes at length the sufferings of the Messiah. It's too long to quote in full, but it contains these amazing lines, "'Afflicted and riding on an ***' That is the Messiah. Why is he called afflicted? Because he was afflicted all those years in the prison, and the transgressors in Israel laughed at him. And why riding upon an ***? Because the transgressors have no merit, ....but through his merit God protects them, and leads them on a level way, and redeems them.....'In thy light we shall see light.' What is this light that the congregation of Israel looks for? That is the light of the Messiah, as it is said, 'God saw the light and it was good.'

    Is modern Judaism being honest to its ancient scholarship, or is it systematically attempting to eradicate the points of contact between Judaism and Christianity?

    Are there not a large number of prophecies to the 'suffering servant' [Messiah son of Joseph] that fail to gain recognition as Messianic prophecies?
     
  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I see two points of inquiry assuming that you are saying that Jesus was the Messiah son of Joseph.

    The first is whether Jesus' father was of the tribe of Joseph and not from David (the tribe of Judah). The title "Son of" is not to name the messiah's father but his lineage unless someone wants to claim that in the case of "Son of David" the text can refer to 25 or so generations back, but "Son of Joseph" means the father. I'm ignoring, of course, any claims that Joseph wasn't Jesus' father, though that point would also invalidate the "son of" name as Jewish law is very exacting about how to refer to adopted children.

    The second has to do with your selection from the Rasag. Here is the Hebrew האמונות והדעות and here is a selection of an English translation with an important section which I will highlight:

    "Next let me say that in either case – I mean whether we do not repent and the events associated with the Messiah descended from Joseph come to pass, or we do repent and are able to dispense with them – the Messiah descended from David will manifest himself to us suddenly. "

    So, according to R. Saadia, there is no guarantee that the Ben Yosef will ever come, but if he does then he will pave the way and the Ben David messiah will directly appear. As that second part hasn't happened, how can you say that Jesus fulfilled the former role?
     
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  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting read.
    Whose Son is Messiah ben Joseph? - David Mitchell - Bright Morning Star
    From the above I get this quote from the end of the article:

    WHOSE SON IS MESSIAH BEN JOSEPH?
    To sum up, rabbinic literature has two distinct views about whose son Messiah ben Joseph is. One view is that he is the son of Joseph, Ephraim, and Joshua. The other view is that he is a heavenly man who descends to earth. Both views are ancient. Yet, within the Bible itself, Messiah ben Joseph’s heavenly origins seem to be implied.
     
    #3 Brian2, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    so neither of those is from the Davidic line.

    Some other points -- the author of that webpage does not understand the rabbinic notion of a being created before creation. There is a talmudic idea that many things were made before they were actually needed and were held in heaven. Also, the P.Rabbati says that what was created and hidden was the light, not the person. And that soul says that he is willing to lead a life of suffering so that the people will not be lost. It says nothing about atonement or his taking their sins.

    "Sibylline Oracles" is not any sort of authoritative Jewish text, with its authorship unknown and its editing sever and subject to various theological agendas. The other conclusions are chock full of wishful thinking and selective interpretation. So this just compounds one problematic claim with others.
     
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  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The question of Jesus' genealogy has been extensively debated, so I'll skip that at present.

    On the second point, are you saying that you don't deny that the scriptures about Messiah son of Joseph exist, just that they no longer have a relevance for Jews? Do Jews have to be 'worthy' to have Messiah son of David come instead of Messiah son of Joseph? [As Joshua ben Levi suggests]

    For my part, I do not believe God makes the pronouncements found in scripture without knowing that there's an audience for his words! If the Jewish nation will not listen, there must be others that will.

    God must have known all along that the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish nation would be an opportunity for the Gentiles to find mercy. The Apostle Paul says, 'Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them [the Jews] which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou [Gentile believers] continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    And they [the Jews] also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.'
    Paul adds to this, 'As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.'

    Do you think it matters that Jews have not accepted Messiah son of Joseph? If Jews still await Messiah son of David, and the scriptures say that all Israel shall be saved, do you think this validates the idea that salvation is through the law, and not by grace [as I believe to be true]?

    Although the hidden period of two thousand years is not easy to discern in the scriptures, I believe that this gap between the coming of the Messiah as a suffering servant, and his return as King of Kings and Judge, is to be found in the Hebrew scriptures. To me this two thousand year gap is the 'paving of the way' for His return.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The notion of the Son of Joseph is found in Jewish texts (not biblical ones explicitly, but through rabbinic documents) and those same documents state that the arrival of the Son of Joseph messiah figure is not a certainty. It isn'y about "relevancy" but about a complete understanding of the sources which discuss it. The Rasag is one of the major sources for understanding here and he says that it will depend.
    Well, there is no pronouncement of a messiah the son of Joseph in any of the scriptures. There are rabbinic voices which try to find allusive support from text. But if you choose to listen to the rabbis, then you should listen to all of what the rabbis say. Then you will see that there is no "rejection" but there is a bigger scenario involved.
    Have not accepted? Jews accept that the concept exists. In fact, Jews are the ones who discuss that the concept exists.
    As you jump from idea to idea, you use words that don't have, shall we say, "relevancy." Your understanding of "salvation" may not be one that Jews share at all. We do believe that our future is predicated on our following Jewish law.
     
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 61 is one of the passages that Luke associates with Jesus as Messiah. In the fourth chapter of Luke's gospel, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 but divides the scripture so as to make it plain that his coming was to be associated with a Jubilee of freedom, rather than a day of judgment.

    The passage from Luke 4:17 reads, 'And there was delivered unto him [Jesus] the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    By stopping his reading at this point, Jesus had cut short his reading at the words, 'and the day of vengeance of our God;'.
    Clearly, Jesus knew what he was doing, for he went on to say, 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears'.

    In the JPS 1985 version, the Isaiah 61 notes read, 'Jubilee for Jerusalem. The identity of the speaker in these vv. is debated. It is possible that Zion speaks, but in the next passage, the speaker addresses Zion. Hence it is more likely that the speaker is the prophet. The text describes the prophet's divine inspiration and God-given mission'.

    Do you agree with this? Or do you think this passge is intended to refer to the Messiah son of Joseph?
     
    #7 Redemptionsong, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea where people see the "year of favor" in Isaiah as referring to a Jubilee. I don't know what JPS notes you are pointing to because this is all I could find JPS 1985 Footnotes, Isaiah 61
    The prophet is talking about himself.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I have the 1999 reprint of the 1985 JPS, which may explain the differences in annotation.

    Is there anything in Jewish literature to link the coming of Messiah son of Joseph with the Jubilee?

    It strikes me as very odd that Isaiah 61:1-3 should be attributed to the prophet Isaiah and not to the Messiah. In what sense could the prophet Isaiah have been said to be the proclaimer of freedom for captives and the imprisoned?

    In Isaiah 11:2, it says, 'And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him [the stem of Jesse], the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD'

    Isaiah 42:1,'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.'

    Isaiah 42:6,7. 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.'

    Jesus had the belief that he was the Anointed of God, and that the Spirit of the Lord God was upon him. Yet his pronouncement in the Nazareth synagogue made no mention of the immediate appearance of Messiah son of David. As with David his shepherd ancestor, the anointing appears to have taken place some time before the crowning.

    1 Samuel 16:13. 'Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.'

    Is it prophetic that 1 Samuel 10:19 should say, 'And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us'?

    1 Samuel 10:26. 'And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched.
    But the children of Belial said, How shall this man save us? And they despised him, and brought him no presents. But he held his peace.'
     
    #9 Redemptionsong, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of any -- do you?
    Three Typological Themes in Early Jewish Messianism: Messiah Son of Joseph, Rabbinic Calculations, and the Figure of Armilus on JSTOR

    The text is spoken in first person and he mentions his divine charge, to prophecy to the people about a future redemption. As the Malbim writes
    אומר כי ה' שלחו לבשר שלשה ענינים (ענין א') הגאולה העתידה, שיגאלו מיד העכו"ם, והנה יש שהם רק שבויים בשבי ויבשר כי יקרא לשבוים דרור, ויש שהם אסורים בזיקים, יבשר כי גם לאסורים יקרא פקח קוח להתיר אסוריהם
    Yes, the prophet speaks of another person -- notice that it is in the 3rd person, as opposed to the first person in 61. He also says that the third person will be of the Davidic line.
    There are actually 3 common understandings of the reference here. Much has to do with whom you think the first person speaker is, starting in the middle of the previous chapter. According to the Ibn Ezra, much of this can be correlated to chapter 49 which speaks of the prophet doing these things.
    So Jesus had a belief. That's nice. Others believed that the spirit of God was upon them as well. Do you happen to follow Joseph Smith?

    There is a difference between being "anointed" with a spirit, and the textual demand that a king be anointed with specific oil. While there is an exception to this, it might not be an avenue you want to pursue.
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Surely Chapter 49 also talks about the Messiah and not the prophet Isaiah?

    Isaiah 49:3. 'And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.'

    Do you honestly believe that God is 'glorified' in his prophet Isaiah? (v.5)'yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD'
    Does a sinful prophet boast before the LORD?

    Was it Isaiah that was formed from the womb to be God's servant? (verse 5)

    Was Isaiah called to be 'a light to the Gentiles'? (verse 6)

    Was Isaiah called to be 'my salvation unto the end of the earth'? (verse 6)

    Is Isaiah to be worshiped by princes? (verse 7)

    What about verse 8, which states that 'In an acceptable time have I heard thee'? Did Jesus not proclaim the 'acceptable year of the LORD'?

    Who is it that is given 'for a covenant of the people'? (verse 8) Does this not tally with Malachi 3:1, 'and the Lord , whom ye seek, shall come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:'?

    Do you really agree with Ibn Ezra?
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Both Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David are the same person.
    He came from heaven, from His Father, and Jesus is of the Davidic line. He is from the tribe of Judah through adoption by Joseph who was of the clan of Bethlehem and the Davidic line. May His mother was also a descendant of David. He is the Son of God, just as the witness to Him in the OT tells us. (Ps 2, Isa 9:6,7 etc)

    The P.Rabbati is not the Word of God and any oral tradition is not the Word of God. The Word of God in the New Testament tells us that Jesus is the one who created all things that have been created. He was not created. It's nice to have guesses and interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures and the article shows some of those guesses and interpretations, which in part agree with the New Testament. There is nothing in the Hebrew scriptures which show a Messiah from the line of Joseph. That is a guess and interpretation.
    Anyway P.Rabbati shows the preexistent Messiah as more than a light, it shows Him as a living, speaking, person who was willing to suffer on earth.

    That's OK, it is only a small section of the article and could be eliminated.
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Surely not.
    49:1 starts with the prophet discussing his own calling (though the Abrabenel has questions on that)
    As the Ibn Ezra writes on 49:3, "That is, Thou art an Israelite of whom I am proud; or Thou art Israel, thou art estimated in mine eyes like all Israelites together. I prefer this latter explanation."
    I'm not sure where you get this quote from. Do you mean "And I have been honored in the sight of the LORD, My God has been my strength." The Hebrew word is from the k-b-d root meaning "honor" (as in "honor you father and your mother" -- same root)

    yes
    Yes -- as the Malbim explains
    עתה לא יהיה תכלית שליחותך ענין פרטי שהוא להשיב הדור ההוא בתשובה רק ענין גדול כללי, כי אתה נמשחת לבשר ענוים הבשורות הגדולות והנחמות העתידות, בעת הישועה הכללית שתהיה באחרית הימים, אשר לאור נבואתך ילכו גוים רבים
    Try this translation "That My salvation may reach the ends of the earth."
    Well, the In Ezra and Malbim disagree on this one. The former says that the prophet speaks of himself as the despised one (to be consistent with the rest of the chapter) and because of his words, "Kings shall see and stand up; Nobles, and they shall prostrate themselves— To the honor of the LORD, who is faithful, To the Holy One of Israel who chose you." So no one is worshiping the prophet. The Malbim sees the despised one as the nation of Israel who, either because God simply remembers his promise to elevate them, or because their righteous actions bring about their being raised, command the respect of other nations, as they evidence the power of God in the world.
    This is the prophecy that God puts in the prophet's mouth (Thus said the LORD, 'In an hour of favor I answer you, And on a day of salvation I help you— I created you and appointed you a covenant people— Restoring the land, Allotting anew the desolate holdings,') so the first person in the quote is God.
    Don't know. Doesn't matter. If it makes you feel better, I'll proclaim "ladies night" at the local library. Since I don't have authority to do that, my doing it won't mean anything.
    You misunderstand the verse -- here is another translation: "and I will watch you, and I will make you for a people of a covenant, to establish a land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages". So God is speaking through the prophet, telling the people what he (God) will do for them.
    Are you really thinking that your personal theory outweighs over a thousand years of Jewish study and understanding?
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    No, that's just your new guess. This way you can have a Son of Joseph reincarnated which justifies your idea of a second coming. Of course, this wouldn't work according to the rabbinic writings, but whatever. There is no state of "adopted" under Jewish law. One can raise an orphan, but there is no adoption status that confers tribal lineage.


    But that's what the website YOU quoted cites as its evidence. So if you want to discount it, then you should not use it as any proof at all.
    It's nice to have made up texts that invent claims.
    Um, first off, you want to discount it because it is not the word of God. Then you want to use it but ignore what it actually says. It refers to the light and the Soton asks "to whom is this light that you have hidden under your seat?" (unless you think that God stowed a living, speaking person under his chair or that the medrash is a literal description of actual events)
    ...אור שנגנז תחת כסא הכבוד שלך למי א"ל למי שהוא עתיד


    So you are left with an incomplete quote from the Rasag who says that the appearance of the Son of Joseph messiah isn't inevitable, and some interpretations (nice to have those, right?) and a reference to a dubious text of no authority. OK. You should be, I would think, happy to ignore any idea of a Son of Joseph messiah. Why you would agree that there is no textual proof ("There is nothing in the Hebrew scriptures which show a Messiah from the line of Joseph.") and yet still defend a text which makes the argument anyway makes no sense.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This is not a matter of my personal theory. It's a desire to uncover the meaning that God intended for his words. A thousand years of Jewish study matters not a jot if behind the facade of honest scholarship lies a conspiracy to bury all references to a personal suffering servant!

    Do you not believe that any of the Hebrew scriptures refer to a personal suffering servant [Israel as an individual, not as a people]?
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Ah, a conspiracy. Got it.
    I believe that there are layers of meaning to verses and a few, according to certain interpretations, can be seen to refer to the messiah, at least in some sense. The talmud records some of these, sort of -- not to mean what you think, though.

    But that's just more of the conspiracy. ;)
     
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  17. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Which Joseph are you referring to? Is it the Joseph ben Jacob, whose genealogy is recorded in Matthew, and who is a descendant through the genetic line of Jehoiachin, of whom the Lord said in Jeremiah 22: 30;"This man (Jehoiachin) is condemned to lose his children. He will have no descendants who will rule in Judah as David's successors. I the Lord have spoken." Joseph ben Jacob, the step father of Jesus, who remained engaged to the already pregnant Mary, and did not consummate his union with her, until she had given birth to 'Jesus' the first of her sons.

    Or are you referring to Joseph ben Heli=Alexander Helios, as recorded in the genealogy of Jesus in Luke? Joseph, the son of Heli who had sired both Mary and her half brother Joseph by two different mothers? 'Joseph the son of Heli,' who was the biological father of Jesus, and a descendant of Nathan the son of David and half brother to Solomon?
     
    #17 The Anointed, Jul 9, 2020
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  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Neither -- I am talking about Joseph the son of the patriarch Jacob. The Son of Joseph messianic figure is also called the Messiah the son of Ephraim as he is to be from that tribe (Ephraim was Joseph's son). The two figures you mentioned could not have passed tribal lineage to Jesus according to Jewish law.
     
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  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Jacob, whose name was changed to "Israel' was the father of all the 13 tribes of Israel. Because Dan was sterile and had no children of his own, after the death of his mother, he adopted his young sister 'Hushim', the daughter of his mother 'Bilhah', which child was conceived from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel.

    The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded..as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house.

    Whenever a man had no sons his eldest daughter, through who his genetic line would be counted, was given the appellation 'ben.'

    Abitub, the first born of Hushim ben Dan, the adopted daughter of the sterile giant Dan, was the first born of her two sons, who were sired by Shaharaim the Benjaminite, and it was 'Abitub' through whom the tribe of Dan was counted. Elpaal the other son, was the ancestor of King Saul, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite.

    Jacob later adopted the two sons of Joseph as his own, and divided Joseph into two tribes, and bestowed the blessing of first born on Ephraim, the second born son of Joseph, making 13 tribes of Israel as seen in Numbers 7, and they are, 1-Judah, 2-Issachar, 3-Zebulun, 4-Reuben, 5-Simeon, 6_Gad, who sold Joseph for thirty coins, 7 Ephraim, 8-Manasseh, 9- Benjamin the tribe that was slaughtered, man, woman, and children, by his brother tribes, 10- Dan, which tribe was counted through his adopted daughter 'Hushim,' whose descendants were sired by Shaharaim, from the tribe of Benjamin, 11- Asher, 12- Naphtali, and the thirteenth tribe was Levi.

    Knowing that the tribe of Benjamin, that the God of Abraham, Isaac, loved, was going to be slaughtered. men, women and children by his brother tribes, through Dan, the Lord made sure that his beloved tribe would survive.

    Revelation 7: 4; the 144,000 who will rule with Jesus for the thousand years Sabbath, are counted from the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe, and those tribes are, Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph=Ephraim, and Benjamin, the tribe that was slaughtered. But no mention of the tribe of Dan.

    Do you know why the descendants of 'Hushim' the first born of Reuben, who was the first born of Israel, is not counted among the 144,000 chosen ones, rosends?

    The Messiah does not come through the line of Ephraim, but through the tribe of Levi (Nathan the son of Uriah and Bathsheba, the adopted son of David, and ancestor of Mary and Joseph the parents of Jesus) and the tribe of Judah (Solomon the biological son of David and Bathsheba, the ancestor of Joseph the son of Jacob,), Jesus our King and high priest.
     
    #19 The Anointed, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Talmud is a treasure chest of information, but I find it hard to believe that the Talmud, completed during the Christian era, has not been tainted by anti-Christian prejudice.

    The discussion amongst Jewish scholars concerning Zechariah 9:9 and Daniel 7:13, and how these two passages might be understood, is what stimulated my interest in a Messiah son of Joseph.

    You say that Messiah son of Joseph does not appear in scripture, but is Zechariah 9:9 not the root of the thinking behind two Messiahs?

    Zech. 9:9. 'Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.'

    How does one marry together a King coming with the clouds of heaven, and a King 'lowly, and riding upon an ***'?
     
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