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Messiah or Nation of Israel

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Victor said:
Alright, I'm trying to understand why a Jewish prophet was speaking in we's about a foreign nation? That makes no sense. The "we" implies he's including himself, no?
no,
from a jewish perspective it is talking about "he" The Nation of Israel, and "we" the leaders of the other nations.
in the final lines of chapter 52 the prophet refers to the kings of the other nations see and hearing things they would never have believed, and then 53 goes right into that shock that will overcome those leaders.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jewscout said:
no,
from a jewish perspective it is talking about "he" The Nation of Israel, and "we" the leaders of the other nations.
in the final lines of chapter 52 the prophet refers to the kings of the other nations see and hearing things they would never have believed, and then 53 goes right into that shock that will overcome those leaders.
This is why I am confused JS. Duet went through some effort to show me that Isaiah 52 is talking about the Nation of Israel. I would even feel comfortable with saying that 54 and most all of Isaiah is talking about the Nation of Israel. But yet Isaiah 53 it talking about the Gentiles, with no clear textual indication that this has occurred. There is absolutely no reason for me to think that the we's are talking about another nation. It's clear that Isaiah is talking to Nation of Israel, is it not?

Isaiah 53 is referring to the Messiah, atoning for the sins of Israel is perfectly consistent with, e.g., the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40, where, God is doing all the work of transformation: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more (Jer 31:33-34).

The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have [size=-1]never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they[/size] [size=-1]have never ceased to be among the living.[/size]

The connections to Christ is just so jumping out at me. It's a man, it's got soul, was buried and dies, etc. But I understand how you guys view it now and perhaps will have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the charitable discussion JS.:)

~Victor
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
It's clear that Isaiah is talking to Nation of Israel, is it not?


not from my point of view. Again, remember that chapters and verses were placed in these books by the church. 52 and 53 are not 2 seperate parts but one great whole, so when, in 52 the prophet talks about what the nations will see and hear it immidiately goes into a monolouge where Isaiah is talking as if he were one of these leaders.
Isaiah 53 is referring to the Messiah, atoning for the sins of Israel is perfectly consistent with, e.g., the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40, where, God is doing all the work of transformation: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more (Jer 31:33-34).
again i think we see more of the divide between the 2 faiths.
To believe that G-d will create a "new covenant" in the sense of doing away with the old goes against all the teachings of traditional judaism and it's view on the Torah itself, which said that nothing shall be added or taken away from it, and any who come to say that this is what they are doing, or for the jewish people to bow and serve another g-d is the message of a false prophet.

The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have [size=-1]never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they[/size] [size=-1]have never ceased to be among the living.[/size]
very true, but this verse could also go to mean all the millions of dead who have been executed and tortured for their beliefs. I could use verse 8 and 9 to describe Rabbi Akiva or any victim of the Holocaust as well.

Note also that Isaiah 53 holds nothing in regards to a ressurrection, an event that is a huge part of the jesus story.

The connections to Christ is just so jumping out at me. It's a man, it's got soul, was buried and dies, etc.
of course, you're a christian. It makes perfect since that this is the image you would get:)

Thanks for the charitable discussion JS.:)

no prob.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
There is more than enough evidence - Talmud, Targum, Maimonides - to suggest that Isaiah 53 was initially viewed as Messianic and reinterpreted around the time of Rashi.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Jayhawker Soule said:
There is more than enough evidence - Talmud, Targum, Maimonides - to suggest that Isaiah 53 was initially viewed as Messianic and reinterpreted around the time of Rashi.
Out of curiousity. Have you ever read any of Raphael Patai work?
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Jayhawker Soule said:
There is more than enough evidence - Talmud, Targum, Maimonides - to suggest that Isaiah 53 was initially viewed as Messianic and reinterpreted around the time of Rashi.
true which is why i originally posted

depends on the commentary...

Rashi seems to be of the opinion that it is talking of the Nation of Israel.
again, though, if we take the stance that it is a messianic verse, is it necessarily talking about Jesus of Nazareth, given the traditionally held jewish perspective of the role of Messiah?

i've heard also that it may be referring to the Moshiach ben Yosef (i think it's ben Yosef anyways) who will precede the Moshiach ben David.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jewscout said:
again, though, if we take the stance that it is a messianic verse, is it necessarily talking about Jesus of Nazareth, given the traditionally held jewish perspective of the role of Messiah?
This gets back to the traditional Jewish dichotomy between the Suffering Servant-Messiah (Messiah ben Joseph) and the kingly, triumphant Messiah (Messiah ben David). I'm still trying to fully grasp this.

jewscout said:
i've heard also that it may be referring to the Moshiach ben Yosef (i think it's ben Yosef anyways) who will precede the Moshiach ben David.
What is the differences between both ben Joseph and ben David, from a Jewish perspective? Which one are you guys waiting for?

~Victor
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Victor said:
Interesting. Is there a concensus on whether Jesus Christ was moshiach ben Yossef?
Victor, i'm pretty sure that Jesus of Nazareth, from a traditional jewish perspective, has played no part in the messianic redemption, as viewed by the jewish definition that i understand.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jewscout said:
Victor, i'm pretty sure that Jesus of Nazareth, from a traditional jewish perspective, has played no part in the messianic redemption, as viewed by the jewish definition that i understand.
Roger that. I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from.
 
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