1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Messiah or Nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Quiddity, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    no,
    from a jewish perspective it is talking about "he" The Nation of Israel, and "we" the leaders of the other nations.
    in the final lines of chapter 52 the prophet refers to the kings of the other nations see and hearing things they would never have believed, and then 53 goes right into that shock that will overcome those leaders.
     
  2. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,866
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Catholic
    This is why I am confused JS. Duet went through some effort to show me that Isaiah 52 is talking about the Nation of Israel. I would even feel comfortable with saying that 54 and most all of Isaiah is talking about the Nation of Israel. But yet Isaiah 53 it talking about the Gentiles, with no clear textual indication that this has occurred. There is absolutely no reason for me to think that the we's are talking about another nation. It's clear that Isaiah is talking to Nation of Israel, is it not?

    Isaiah 53 is referring to the Messiah, atoning for the sins of Israel is perfectly consistent with, e.g., the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40, where, God is doing all the work of transformation: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more (Jer 31:33-34).

    The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have [size=-1]never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they[/size] [size=-1]have never ceased to be among the living.[/size]

    The connections to Christ is just so jumping out at me. It's a man, it's got soul, was buried and dies, etc. But I understand how you guys view it now and perhaps will have to agree to disagree.

    Thanks for the charitable discussion JS.:)

    ~Victor
     
  3. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922


    not from my point of view. Again, remember that chapters and verses were placed in these books by the church. 52 and 53 are not 2 seperate parts but one great whole, so when, in 52 the prophet talks about what the nations will see and hear it immidiately goes into a monolouge where Isaiah is talking as if he were one of these leaders.
    again i think we see more of the divide between the 2 faiths.
    To believe that G-d will create a "new covenant" in the sense of doing away with the old goes against all the teachings of traditional judaism and it's view on the Torah itself, which said that nothing shall be added or taken away from it, and any who come to say that this is what they are doing, or for the jewish people to bow and serve another g-d is the message of a false prophet.

    very true, but this verse could also go to mean all the millions of dead who have been executed and tortured for their beliefs. I could use verse 8 and 9 to describe Rabbi Akiva or any victim of the Holocaust as well.

    Note also that Isaiah 53 holds nothing in regards to a ressurrection, an event that is a huge part of the jesus story.

    of course, you're a christian. It makes perfect since that this is the image you would get:)


    no prob.
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,751
    Ratings:
    +15,014
    Religion:
    Judaism
    There is more than enough evidence - Talmud, Targum, Maimonides - to suggest that Isaiah 53 was initially viewed as Messianic and reinterpreted around the time of Rashi.
     
  5. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,866
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Out of curiousity. Have you ever read any of Raphael Patai work?
     
  6. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    true which is why i originally posted

    again, though, if we take the stance that it is a messianic verse, is it necessarily talking about Jesus of Nazareth, given the traditionally held jewish perspective of the role of Messiah?

    i've heard also that it may be referring to the Moshiach ben Yosef (i think it's ben Yosef anyways) who will precede the Moshiach ben David.
     
  7. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,866
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Catholic
    This gets back to the traditional Jewish dichotomy between the Suffering Servant-Messiah (Messiah ben Joseph) and the kingly, triumphant Messiah (Messiah ben David). I'm still trying to fully grasp this.

    What is the differences between both ben Joseph and ben David, from a Jewish perspective? Which one are you guys waiting for?

    ~Victor
     
  8. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
  9. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,866
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Catholic
  10. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    Victor, i'm pretty sure that Jesus of Nazareth, from a traditional jewish perspective, has played no part in the messianic redemption, as viewed by the jewish definition that i understand.
     
  11. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,866
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Roger that. I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,751
    Ratings:
    +15,014
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Shamefully, no.
     
Loading...