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Messiah or Nation of Israel

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
From the Christian lens that I wear this passage seems to be clearly talking about the Messiah. The disagreement is whether it refers to the Messiah or The Nation of Israel. Let me know your thoughts.

Isaiah 53 (RSV)
1 Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been
[size=-1] revealed?[/size]
[size=-1]2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no[/size]
[size=-1] form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.[/size]
[size=-1]3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as[/size]
[size=-1] one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.[/size]
[size=-1]4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten[/size]
[size=-1] by God, and afflicted.[/size]
[size=-1]5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was[/size]
[size=-1] the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.[/size]
[size=-1]6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD[/size]
[size=-1] has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[/size]
[size=-1]7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led[/size]
[size=-1] to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.[/size]
[size=-1]8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered[/size]
[size=-1] that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?[/size]
[size=-1]9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had[/size]
[size=-1] done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.[/size]
[size=-1]10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself[/size]
[size=-1] an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD[/size]
[size=-1] shall prosper in his hand;[/size]
[size=-1]11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the[/size]
[size=-1] righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their[/size]
[size=-1] iniquities.[/size]
[size=-1]12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the[/size]
[size=-1] strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors;[/size]
[size=-1] yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.[/size]
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
depends on the commentary...

Rashi seems to be of the opinion that it is talking of the Nation of Israel.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jewscout said:
depends on the commentary...

Rashi seems to be of the opinion that it is talking of the Nation of Israel.
Is there disagreement in the Jewish community on this?

~Victor
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
Is there disagreement in the Jewish community on this?

~Victor
Today, no. But there has been some disagreements, just like there is a disagreement if I can use my refrigerator on Shabbas.

Different opinions all require that the light in the frig be off.
1) Yes as long as it's not open for long.
2) No, because when you open the fridge, you cause the engine to kick in because the room absorbs a lot of the cold, so in essense, you're breaking one of the rules.
3) Yes, only when the engine is running as it was already running on its own accord and opening it won't cause it to run.
4) No, because when you open it while the engine is running, you will cause the engine to run harder and use more energy or you will cause it to run longer.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Deut 13:1 said:
Okay, before I go line by line, it's important to note this is the last of the servant songs.

When we first read this, we see a lot of "he, him". So who is this person that is talked about? Well, in verse 11 we find out that it's, avdi, my servant. So who is this servant? As I said above, this is the fourth of four servant songs, in the earlier songs it says explicitly that the servant is Israel.

Isaiah 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen.
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 41:8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me,

Okay, so now we've established who the servant is, the nation of Israel also called Jacob, let's again think of the last servant song. Why in this case would Isaiah go so out of whack to totally redefine who the servant is? Another piece of evidence to consider, all the capital He and Him's you have are nothing but interpretation. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters. So you'd have to ask your translators why they translation Lo capitalized in this case as a capital he, vs. a lower case.

Okay, so now let's look at the grammar of Isaiah 53 to further prove it's impossible to be talking about one person.

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

At the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person. So if you send a letter to the people who translate Isaiah 53, I actually would be interested in their response.

וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו

Again the word at the end B'Motav says "with his deaths" i.e. multiple deaths as apposed to Be'Moto, "with his death". verse 9.

Another thing, if you follow the whole narative, look at 52:14 it is refering to the kings, the gentile kings. At that point, the story is given from their perspective, they are the "we" and the "our", giving their side of it. Why then would the Jews, G-d's people, then be thrown into it? They wouldn't, unless they are the ones being afflicted.

The final piece of evidence is this: I'm still trying to figure out how it could possibly be "prophetic" if it was written in 700BC in the past tense.... The entire narritive of Isaiah 53 is in the PAST tense, so explain, why would G-d have Isaiah go so out of whack with prophecy, ignore grammatical rules, and ignore the previous 3 servant songs where Avdi is identified as the nation of Israel.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23224
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
I can see where it can easily be interpreted to be in reference to Jesus. Frankly that makes more sense, as Victor's post is written than interpreting it as refering to the Nation of Israel. The problem comes with the "version". It is written in English, which is the only language I read fluently, but which is not the language in which this passage was originally written.

A word translated differently here and there from the original Hebrew, and the passage could very likely take on a totally different meaning. I think it important to realize who wrote the KJV of the Bible, and when and why. To those who translated and drafted the Bible as we know it in the Western World, it is pretty obvious that they were thinking this passage referred to Jesus, and subsequently, when they were translating it, I am sure that, at least subconsciously, they would hedge any close calls on the translations toward a translation which supported their ideology.

So, as it is written in English, it seems pretty clearly to be pointing to Jesus. As it was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or whatever other Biblical language it may have appeared in, I cannot comment.

B.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
:clap very true Deut.

most today w/ in the jewish community would support the view of Rashi

i just thought it was worth noting that there has been disagreements on this particular set of verses.
 

mormonman

Ammon is awesome
Obviously, it is talking about Christ. Was the nation of Isreal, "...bruised for our iniquities", or are we "healed by His stripes" by the Nation of Isreal. I don't think so.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
I can see where it can easily be interpreted to be in reference to Jesus. Frankly that makes more sense, as Victor's post is written than interpreting it as refering to the Nation of Israel. The problem comes with the "version". It is written in English, which is the only language I read fluently, but which is not the language in which this passage was originally written.
Why not learn Hebrew then?

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
A word translated differently here and there from the original Hebrew, and the passage could very likely take on a totally different meaning. I think it important to realize who wrote the KJV of the Bible, and when and why. To those who translated and drafted the Bible as we know it in the Western World, it is pretty obvious that they were thinking this passage referred to Jesus, and subsequently, when they were translating it, I am sure that, at least subconsciously, they would hedge any close calls on the translations toward a translation which supported their ideology.
It doesn't help that English translations capitalize words such as He or Him and inserting their opinion w/ scripture. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters like English. And I 100% agree, the translators had Mr. J in mind.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
So, as it is written in English, it seems pretty clearly to be pointing to Jesus. As it was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or whatever other Biblical language it may have appeared in, I cannot comment.
Well, as I said, learn Hebrew... ;)

By the way, frubals for yer 2nd paragraph.
 

sushannah

Member
In my opinion, it is clearly talking about the Nation of Isreal. Israel is identified as the servant earlier in Isaiah, so there is no reason to believe that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus. It is simply a very poetic metaphor.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
mormonman said:
Obviously, it is talking about Christ. Was the nation of Isreal, "...bruised for our iniquities", or are we "healed by His stripes" by the Nation of Isreal. I don't think so.
Read my post before you post such nonsense. One it's *his* not *His*.

Let me know when you decide to address the grammatical points I raised instead of repeating the same stuff you heard in church.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
sushannah said:
In my opinion, it is clearly talking about the Nation of Isreal. Israel is identified as the servant earlier in Isaiah, so there is no reason to believe that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus. It is simply a very poetic metaphor.
:clap
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
mormonman said:
Obviously, it is talking about Christ. Was the nation of Isreal, "...bruised for our iniquities", or are we "healed by His stripes" by the Nation of Isreal. I don't think so.
how many people are christ?

as has been pointed out, the original hebrew has it in the plural
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Deut 13:1 said:
Why not learn Hebrew then?

It doesn't help that English translations capitalize words such as He or Him and inserting their opinion w/ scripture. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters like English. And I 100% agree, the translators had Mr. J in mind.

Well, as I said, learn Hebrew... ;)

By the way, frubals for yer 2nd paragraph.
Well, to be honest, it has taken me 31 years to gain even a marginal control over English, and I have been working on getting a bit of a grasp on Spanish. I think adding Hebrew into the mix would be more than my fragile little mind could handle. I will have to rely on others, more skilled in linguistics and translations for that.

Oh, and thanks for the frubals.

B.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Couple points,
  • The Messiah is called "servant" in Zech 3:8 and also in Ezek 34:23-24.
  • In 53:3 the subject is called a man. In 53:11-12 a "soul" is ascribed to him.
I read your comments on the fourth song but don't see how it applies to Isaiah 53. Does the nations of Israel ever called a man or have a soul attached to them?

~Victor
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Both! Israel is His first-born and Yeshua is the first-born of all creation to become His only begotten!
The two are inseperable, they are mirror images.
Check out Vendyl Jones' "Riddle of the Messiah."
Since we are privy to both the "beginning and the end", we shouldn't have so much trouble seeing the Aleph Tav/Alpha and the Omega.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
Couple points,
  • The Messiah is called "servant" in Zech 3:8 and also in Ezek 34:23-24.
  • In 53:3 the subject is called a man. In 53:11-12 a "soul" is ascribed to him.
I read your comments on the fourth song but don't see how it applies to Isaiah 53. Does the nations of Israel ever called a man or have a soul attached to them?

~Victor
Did Isaiah write Zarchiah and Ezekial? No. Let's stick w/ how Isaiah uses avdi.

In hebrew, you can refer to a group of people in 3rd person singular. Hebrew is grammatticaly VERY different then English. For starters there are only 4 tenses. Present, Past, Future, and command. In english there are a billion. I struggled to understand the, "I shall have wanted to have done ...ect.."
 

mormonman

Ammon is awesome
jewscout said:
how many people are christ?

as has been pointed out, the original hebrew has it in the plural
PLEASE, DON'T TELL ME YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL HEBREW TEXTS, UNCHANGED. I'LL GIVE YOU GUYS A SECRET, THEY'VE BEEN CHANGED!
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
mormonman said:
PLEASE, DON'T TELL ME YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL HEBREW TEXTS, UNCHANGED. I'LL GIVE YOU GUYS A SECRET, THEY'VE BEEN CHANGED!
would you have me believe yours, which has been translated and retranslated and mistranslated, is the accurate version?
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
mormonman said:
PLEASE, DON'T TELL ME YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL HEBREW TEXTS, UNCHANGED. I'LL GIVE YOU GUYS A SECRET, THEY'VE BEEN CHANGED!
"It is better to be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt."

I don't know who said it, but you should definetly look into it. :rolleyes:
 
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