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Messiah or Nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Quiddity, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    From the Christian lens that I wear this passage seems to be clearly talking about the Messiah. The disagreement is whether it refers to the Messiah or The Nation of Israel. Let me know your thoughts.

    Isaiah 53 (RSV)
    1 Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been
    [size=-1] revealed?[/size]
    [size=-1]2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no[/size]
    [size=-1] form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.[/size]
    [size=-1]3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as[/size]
    [size=-1] one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.[/size]
    [size=-1]4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten[/size]
    [size=-1] by God, and afflicted.[/size]
    [size=-1]5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was[/size]
    [size=-1] the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.[/size]
    [size=-1]6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD[/size]
    [size=-1] has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[/size]
    [size=-1]7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led[/size]
    [size=-1] to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.[/size]
    [size=-1]8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered[/size]
    [size=-1] that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?[/size]
    [size=-1]9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had[/size]
    [size=-1] done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.[/size]
    [size=-1]10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself[/size]
    [size=-1] an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD[/size]
    [size=-1] shall prosper in his hand;[/size]
    [size=-1]11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the[/size]
    [size=-1] righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their[/size]
    [size=-1] iniquities.[/size]
    [size=-1]12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the[/size]
    [size=-1] strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors;[/size]
    [size=-1] yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.[/size]
     
  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    depends on the commentary...

    Rashi seems to be of the opinion that it is talking of the Nation of Israel.
     
  3. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Is there disagreement in the Jewish community on this?

    ~Victor
     
  4. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Today, no. But there has been some disagreements, just like there is a disagreement if I can use my refrigerator on Shabbas.

    Different opinions all require that the light in the frig be off.
    1) Yes as long as it's not open for long.
    2) No, because when you open the fridge, you cause the engine to kick in because the room absorbs a lot of the cold, so in essense, you're breaking one of the rules.
    3) Yes, only when the engine is running as it was already running on its own accord and opening it won't cause it to run.
    4) No, because when you open it while the engine is running, you will cause the engine to run harder and use more energy or you will cause it to run longer.
     
  5. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23224
     
  6. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    I can see where it can easily be interpreted to be in reference to Jesus. Frankly that makes more sense, as Victor's post is written than interpreting it as refering to the Nation of Israel. The problem comes with the "version". It is written in English, which is the only language I read fluently, but which is not the language in which this passage was originally written.

    A word translated differently here and there from the original Hebrew, and the passage could very likely take on a totally different meaning. I think it important to realize who wrote the KJV of the Bible, and when and why. To those who translated and drafted the Bible as we know it in the Western World, it is pretty obvious that they were thinking this passage referred to Jesus, and subsequently, when they were translating it, I am sure that, at least subconsciously, they would hedge any close calls on the translations toward a translation which supported their ideology.

    So, as it is written in English, it seems pretty clearly to be pointing to Jesus. As it was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or whatever other Biblical language it may have appeared in, I cannot comment.

    B.
     
  7. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    :clap very true Deut.

    most today w/ in the jewish community would support the view of Rashi

    i just thought it was worth noting that there has been disagreements on this particular set of verses.
     
  8. mormonman

    mormonman Ammon is awesome

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    Obviously, it is talking about Christ. Was the nation of Isreal, "...bruised for our iniquities", or are we "healed by His stripes" by the Nation of Isreal. I don't think so.
     
  9. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Why not learn Hebrew then?

    It doesn't help that English translations capitalize words such as He or Him and inserting their opinion w/ scripture. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters like English. And I 100% agree, the translators had Mr. J in mind.

    Well, as I said, learn Hebrew... ;)

    By the way, frubals for yer 2nd paragraph.
     
  10. sushannah

    sushannah Member

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    In my opinion, it is clearly talking about the Nation of Isreal. Israel is identified as the servant earlier in Isaiah, so there is no reason to believe that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus. It is simply a very poetic metaphor.
     
  11. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Read my post before you post such nonsense. One it's *his* not *His*.

    Let me know when you decide to address the grammatical points I raised instead of repeating the same stuff you heard in church.
     
  12. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    :clap
     
  13. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    how many people are christ?

    as has been pointed out, the original hebrew has it in the plural
     
  14. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be honest, it has taken me 31 years to gain even a marginal control over English, and I have been working on getting a bit of a grasp on Spanish. I think adding Hebrew into the mix would be more than my fragile little mind could handle. I will have to rely on others, more skilled in linguistics and translations for that.

    Oh, and thanks for the frubals.

    B.
     
  15. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Couple points,
    • The Messiah is called "servant" in Zech 3:8 and also in Ezek 34:23-24.
    • In 53:3 the subject is called a man. In 53:11-12 a "soul" is ascribed to him.
    I read your comments on the fourth song but don't see how it applies to Isaiah 53. Does the nations of Israel ever called a man or have a soul attached to them?

    ~Victor
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Both! Israel is His first-born and Yeshua is the first-born of all creation to become His only begotten!
    The two are inseperable, they are mirror images.
    Check out Vendyl Jones' "Riddle of the Messiah."
    Since we are privy to both the "beginning and the end", we shouldn't have so much trouble seeing the Aleph Tav/Alpha and the Omega.
     
  17. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Did Isaiah write Zarchiah and Ezekial? No. Let's stick w/ how Isaiah uses avdi.

    In hebrew, you can refer to a group of people in 3rd person singular. Hebrew is grammatticaly VERY different then English. For starters there are only 4 tenses. Present, Past, Future, and command. In english there are a billion. I struggled to understand the, "I shall have wanted to have done ...ect.."
     
  18. mormonman

    mormonman Ammon is awesome

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    PLEASE, DON'T TELL ME YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL HEBREW TEXTS, UNCHANGED. I'LL GIVE YOU GUYS A SECRET, THEY'VE BEEN CHANGED!
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    would you have me believe yours, which has been translated and retranslated and mistranslated, is the accurate version?
     
  20. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    "It is better to be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt."

    I don't know who said it, but you should definetly look into it. :rolleyes:
     
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