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Messiah: Man or Idea?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jewscout, May 4, 2005.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    i fail to see how this...
    and this..
    the only part of that definition that has to do w/ anyone but the jews is that Jerusalem will be the center of world power...what message is that?

    so, what, is this to imply that Rabbi Hillel is/was the Moshiach? This is the idea of the "Golden Rule" that is universal in many faiths and cultures and has been around for a long long time...it's nothing new.
     
  2. Exis

    Exis Member

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    Then original question was... is the Christ/Messia/Savior an idea or a person that saves you?... My answer is that it is an idea of a person and what He chose, endured, and tought and how that relates to one's self that saves.
     
  3. anami

    anami Member

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    You are a laugh riot of misunderstanding jewscout.

    Let's begin the clear up.
    My point is, you said the The Mashiyach is defined as the annointed one of the messiah.

    So then by your own words the Mashiyach is defined as a person who is annointed and brings a massiah.
    Based on that i would say the messiah is the message brought.


    everyone or group of people sorts themselves out on top Jews are no different.

    At the time not many other types of people were known about except in Rumors. Ya got Jews Romans and Greeks, So they never assumed billions of people would live on this planet someday. Give the ancient Jews a break, i don't see anyone allotting their current statement to meet the faculties of 2ooo years from now.

    Not in any way shape or form.
    Weren't you asking what the message was?
    The only thing every religion agrees on is this point.
    The rest is just details or in other words comentary, but then that is just details or commentary.

    Christianity
    All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
    * * * Matthew 7:1

    Confucianism
    Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
    * * * Analects 12:2

    Buddhism
    Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
    * * * Udana-Varga 5,1

    Hinduism
    This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
    * * * Mahabharata 5,1517

    Islam
    No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
    * * * Sunnah

    Judaism
    What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
    * * * Talmud, Shabbat 3id

    Taoism
    Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
    * * * Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien

    Zoroastrianism
    That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
    * * * Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5

    Adapted from "The Christopher Newsletter"
     
  4. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    and you anami are no different

    this isn't what i said at all...
    the term "annointed one" is in reference to a person who is annointed w/ oil to take a place of power, such as a KING or a Kohen
    and a King is exactly what the definition i provided for the Moshiach says...

    http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#What

    perhaps i should have also included from this site...
    he's not the bringer of a message, but a political leader, a King to bring about the return of the Davidic line to Jerusalem and rule there in a religious Jewish state of Israel...
    many have come w/ messages throughtout history in all faiths and cultures...the role of the Moshiach in jewish tradition is to return the Jews to the Holy land, rebuild the Temple, and world peace will be ushered in, not because of the person but because the world will know there is One G-d...
    and if that is the message, anami, that is a message the jews have been teaching for 3500 years...it is a message that christians and muslims believe...it is not going to be anything earthshattering if that is all the Moshiach is bringing w/ him

    anami if the "golden rule" is the message then that as well is not going to be anything new or earthshattering...if it is to change the world it's going to need to be revolutionary...

    and as you have shown it is nothing new in the many cultures of this world.
     
  5. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    You forgot one
    Wicca
    Do what you will, but harm no one.
     
  6. anami

    anami Member

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    There are tens of thousands of religions on the planet, i left out most of them. Of, course you see the theme, which is equally present in the others i didn't mention.
    Don't fret though, i add the wiccan rede everytime i publish the list.
     
  7. anami

    anami Member

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    That was not a generalization, jewscout.
    i was referring only to the main point of my posts in this thread. Which i actually do understand as i am the only one who actually can understand my perspective, as you with yours.
    i was not in anyway implying you do not generally understand anything. Only me in this moment.
    To generalize a lack of understanding of someone you so barely know would be rude.


    Excuse me, i was mistaken. It was Enhanced Spirt quoting.

    Or the annoited one of the messiah.
    So a Mashiyach is an annointed person to take a place of power.
    For a kinghood or a messiah, This could easily be to be, annointed to carry the messiah, the message.


    And of course that site is merely commentary. There is only one true law.
    Because it is said doesn't make it fact.

    It is sensible to think, that if the divine message is being taught and your faith is one of the most persercuted through an extended span of centuries, it might not quite be it. But then there is a beautiful excape clause, as in everything else.
    That is the sum of the law and the rest is commentary.
    The "golden rule"
    R~E~S~P~E~C~T



    Nothing new in it's existance, but never have we had an experience of a society where everyone follows it, now have we?
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    The above implies a physical person, to me.:)
     
  9. anami

    anami Member

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    Are you serious?
    You are using a text that has been translated from Greek, we have already acertained that messiah comes from machiyach which means to be annointed of a messiah. The Original texts you are using, pre translation, are what is currently in discussion over interpretation. Just because something is written doesn't make it solid fact in every living humans brain.
     
  10. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    i'd like to know where you keep coming up w/ the definiton of the messiah as message and not man...

    yes a ruler and redeemer of the Jewish people

    yes it's not what anyone acutally believes
    unless you're an observant jew...
    i'll remember you said that...

     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well I am sorry, anami; the Bible is what I understand to be the definitive origin of Christian belief; if you want to chuck the bible in the bin, then do so - that is your perogative. Mine is to accept the bible.:)
     
  12. anami

    anami Member

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    This thread isn't about Christian beliefs.
    It is about the concept of the Messiah and we have been using Jewish definitions and scripts to discuss it. You can, of course, bring a Christian out look to the topic of the Messiah Man or Message.

    i am not chucking it in the bin as much as reading an earlier version. Which says things that can be interpreted in another way other than the one that you are reading.
     
  13. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    then why can't michel use the book of daniel? It is a jewish text.

    it is from the same verses that you get this idea of the "anointed one of the messiah" is it not? the definition you seem to like so much from ES comes from these exact same verses.

    actually though these verses have little if nothing to do w/ the prophecy of the coming Moshaich but of Cyrus who was coming to conquer babylon and allow the jews to return to Eretz Yisrael
    so why do you continue to use this verse if jewish commentators and scholars say it has nothing to do w/ the future messiahnic redemption?x
     
  14. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jesus was a man, with an idea.




    PS> Jewscout, what happened to your face? You look human.:jiggy:
     
  15. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    so was Martin Luther King Jr. and Adolf Hitler...this doesn't make them the Moshiach ben David



    check out my "return of murphy" thread!
     
  16. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    You caught me trying to be profound.:D

    And I will look for the other thread, but Murphy follows me EVERYWHERE.
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    i mean my thing is if we're talking about someone who's suposed to bring a message that's one thing...and for me i know that the christian concept of the Messiah is different from the Jewish concept of the Moshiach ben David...so how christians interpret the term and role of Jesus is their business...
    But the Moshiach ben David has very specific tasks and roles set for him in Jewish prophechy...the vast majority of which deal exclusively w/ the Jews...he is a leader that will lead the Jews to the promised redemption

    and we should all try to keep the memory of the leader of the sacred red planet in our hearts...
    SIR PHOBOS!
     
  18. anami

    anami Member

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    Because he is using something that is further translated. We are discussing Jewish terminology that has been translated out of what he is using.

    All i am talking about is possible interpretations of a word.
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    perhaps anami i should ask you to provide some jewish source material on the interpretation of the word Moshiach as meaning anything else than the king and redeemer of the Jewish people...
    because everything i have read refers to the Moshiach as a person not a message...
     
  20. anami

    anami Member

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    Back up.
    We are discussing possible interpretations of the concept behind the word Messiah.

    As a perspective you suggested, due to being Jewish i assume, that the concept may have come from where the word came from Machiyach.
    This was illustrated to have the ability to take one of three meanings, one being that the Machiyach is the annointed one of the Messiah, implying that the Mashiyach is seperate frojm the Messiah concept, though the word in english is dirivitive.


    My point has yet to be touched as we have been dealing with semantics and Jewish and Christian writings of a concept.

    The concept we are dealing with is the second coming in this case, or we could go back and look at the multitude of first comings that have been individually noted.

    Due to a synthesis of all i have ever read on the subject from a huge variety of sources over the past several decades i have garnered the concept that the Messiah is an idea and not a person.
    You want that annotated i will say, anami 2005.
    If you wanted me to annotate all of the works that built this synthesis i would say you are nuts.
     
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