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Messiah: Man or Idea?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jewscout, May 4, 2005.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    from another thread
    an interesting concept...could the "messiah" be an idea or concept as opposed to a physical person??
     
  2. anami

    anami Member

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    Well, i obviously think so.
    :D

    Thanks for starting this thread jewscout, i am interested to see what people think. :woohoo:
     
  3. Cr0wley

    Cr0wley More Human Than Human

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    Well, I think the idea is one thing, but I believe the messiah is the one that actually teaches this idea and makes it known.
     
  4. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    well messiah supposedly comes from the Hebrew word Moshiach meaning "annointed one" so i'll have to go w/ "What is an acutal person" Alex!:jiggy:
     
  5. anami

    anami Member

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    So what is the messiah's divine idea called?
     
  6. anami

    anami Member

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    Semantics!


    ok. Let's say, hypothetically now, that the point of the messiah is an idea. Jesus was just some guy without his divinely gifted progressive thought.

    ok, not hypothetically, hebrew and english do not directly translate so everything is debateable, but then in the tradfition of judism so is everything. If i were a rabbi i coould be debating other rabbi's about the possible concept connversion that came with that specfic choice of word translation.

    And that the ancient concept could have intended a concept rather than a person.
     
  7. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    LOVE, AGAPE, AMORE
     
  8. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    We have to look at the text in the language that was written and we have to use the definitions that the writers used to express what they were saying.

    The word Messiah is only found 2 times in the KJV (Da. 9:25,26) and is translated from the hebrew word Mashiyach: anointed, anointed one; a)of the Messiah, Messianic prince; b)of the king of Israel; c)of the high priest of Israel; d)of Cyrus; d)of the patriarchs as anointed kings.

    This hebrew word is actually found 37 times in the KJV, but in these(Lev.{4x},1&2 Samuel{17x}, 1&2 Chron{2x}. Psalms{10x}, Isaiah{1x}, Lam.{1x},and Hab.{1x}) it was translated as the english word, anointed.

    If you want to debate the english-hebrew translations, you must understand that the hebrew language is very precise. whereas English one word can have completely different meanings. ie. bow(bow for hair, bow arrows, or bow of boat, or to bend at the waist)

    Why is the same hebrew word translated into two different english words? Why was the english word 'Messiah' put in those two verses instead of the word 'anointed' like everywhere else in the book?
     
  9. Stick of Joseph

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    I think its safe to believe on both, that Christ was an idea and man, but this is what I know is true. Jesus Christ the Messiah was sent of God to take upon the sins of the world that were committed and to be committed. I believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. I believe God knew the only way for us to return to him with the knowledge of good and evil, that we obtained on earth, was to send Christ to die for us. God mad an plan,or idea, of a Christ to take upon sin, and it was to be carried out by Jesus. I believe he is our God and our elder brother, and if he was to return to heaven, he was to obtain a body.
     
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  10. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I think EnhancedSpirit hit the nail on the head w/ this one. In every context of the word Moshiach it is refering to a single person, that is why the full title is Moshiach ben David. While i will agree that Judaism has a tradition of debate and varying interpretation but i'd imagine even the most liberal minded of rabbis would have to concede that the Moshiach is believed to be an actual person. His ideas won't be so much the salvation since nothing is really going to change for judaism theologically speaking. He will bring about the engathering of the exiles, established a secured land for Israel, bring the return of the Temple and reign as the leader of the jewish people.

    now once you leave judaism and get into the concept of the messiah in christian or other religious contexts, for me anyways, it gets a little more fuzzy
     
  11. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    The word Messiah does not appear in the New Testament. Not one time. Hmmm?
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And you learned this where? :rolleyes:

    Debate typically works best when people verify their claims rather than making up self-serving facts on the fly.
     
  13. anami

    anami Member

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    So like i said, it could be Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah.
    person carrying a message.
     
  14. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I think i should ask what message is the messiah supposed to carry?
     
  15. anami

    anami Member

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    The Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah, wouls be a message universal to all, adaptable into any language or perameter of understanding, and the message will be that which saves the world. A message that brings people to a new level of understanding that brings this dark world into a new light.
     
  16. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I already answered that LOVE Love love. Love of God, Love of your neighbor, love of you enemies.
     
  17. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Excuse me, but I learned this from the Rabbi who taught me how to study the bible in it's original language. Maybe what I said has been misunderstood. I know the Hebrew language does not include as many concepts has our modern language. But that is only because we have labeled a lot more things since then. They were simple people with a simple language. But the words they did have were specific. And example is the fact that there is a distinction between Adonai, Ywhw, and Elohim. Each of these has a specific meaning pertaining to the context, but are all God. We confused a lot by throwing the word God in all over the place. And look what we have done to the definition of the word love. We use this word to describe dozens of different feelings. But the Hebrew language has a different word for 'general love' and AGAPE.

    These are examples I am pulling out of my brain files from a long time ago.
     
  18. anami

    anami Member

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    My conversations with Jewish scholars support this.
     
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  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    role of the Moshiach in Judaism...


    http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#What

    that's sort of it in a nut shell w/o really getting into the heavy "What if's" of the messiahnic era

    again tho this is a jewish perspective...christianity'sinterpretation of the "messiah" is a bit different...



    sounds jewish:rolleyes:

     
  20. anami

    anami Member

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    Precicely -
    Given that first option of definition, you just reaffirmed that the messiah is the message carried by the annointed one.




    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary - go and learn it."
     
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