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Messiah in Islam

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    When did Allah say, they got corrupted? They are not. Allah keeps asking Jews and Christians to stand by those Holy Books.
     
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  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Hello pastek,

    The word Messiah originated from Hebrew. It did not start from Arabic. Later it entered to Arabic.
    In Hebrew, this word denote a Leader, and typically a King. They had a ceremony that, they used an oil, to anoint a person as a Leader.
    In Quran and Traditions Jesus is not a Worldly king. Neither in Christian Bible, Jesus is a King.
    But one of the reasons Jews rejected Jesus, was because He was not an anointed Leader. He was from a poor Carpenter family.
    My intention in bringing this up, is to say, the way God uses Words in not always literal. There is a sense of Spiritual and Symbolism in His Words sometimes. Jesus is not literally an anointed Messiah. But He was a Messenger of God, and in that sense He was a King, due to His station. He was passing the commands of God to people.
    The lesson is, literalism has been one of the causes of rejection of Spiritual truth. When people take everything literal in Holy Books, they get mislead. See Quran, verse 3:7. Some of its verses are Symbolic.
    I am asking you: can God speaks symbolically, or He is supposed to speak only literally? Huh?
    If God calls someone King and chooses Him as a Leader, but people do not accept Him and reject to follow Him, is He still the King or not?

    The differences you see between story of Joseph in the Bible and Quran, are not contradictions. The story in the Bible is by far more detailed than the One in the Quran. There is no reason Allah just repeats same details again, when they are already correctly preserved in Torah. He has given a summary and a brief description of the story as a reminder. I am asking you: can God summarize a precious story, and expressing it again showing other point of views? Or He is allowed to do that, huh?
     
    #62 InvestigateTruth, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
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  3. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    Yes i saw a documentary about it. Apparently some worshipped other gods and that's why they found some statues in their homes.

    Salam,
    Of course he is.
    If you are saying that Jesus is a King according to Christians Scriptures, ok.
    But if you ask muslims, we have no confirmation about this.
    Anyway if you look at the hadiths concerning the return of Jesus he will be the Ruler.
    So you can interpreat it as him being a Caliph a Leader or a King. But the word "king" is not specifically used to describe him.

    I agree there's much more details in the Bible but how can you not see the differences ? It's quite obvious

    When in the Bible it says that Aaron built the calf and in the Quran it was said the Samiri did it and precise that Aaron didn't take any part in it, you have to face the fact that it's not about adding/omitting some elements.
    It's about if a prophet of God can mislead intentionally people. Creating or worshipping other gods.

    What was said about Aaron and Solomon concerning their supposed disbelief is not something that we should see as details that "we didn't have" in the Quran.
    It is in the Quran to expose things said about some prophets that wasn't true.

    Look for exemple what was said to the Prophet Muhammad if he had follow the polytheists :

    Surah 17
    73. They almost lured you (Muhammad) away from what We have revealed to you, so that you would invent something else in Our name. (...)

    74. Had We not given you stability, you might have inclined towards them a little.

    75. Then We would have made you taste double in life, and double at death; then you would have found for yourself no helper against Us.

    76. They almost provoked you, to expel you from the land. In that case, they would not have lasted after you, except briefly.


    77. The tradition of the messengers We sent before youyou will find no change in Our rules.

    So why this didn't happen to Aaron ?
    It would be contradictory to the Quran if we akwnoledge that he worshipped (or lead people to do so) another god and nothing happened to him.

    Surah 20
    29.30 And appoint an assistant for me, from my family Aaron, my brother.
    31.32 Strengthen me with him And have him share in my mission.
    33. That we may glorify You much.

    Sourah 28
    35. He (Allah) said, “We will strengthen your arm with your brother, and We will give you authority, so they will not touch you. By virtue of Our signs, you and those who follow you will be the triumphant.”


    Aaron was here to help Moses, not to turn people against God.
    So we can't see things different in the Bible and say it's just their own interpretations.
     
  4. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    1. The Messiah is describes as a Ruler in the Jewish scriptures, but when He came He was not literally a Ruler. Instead they crucified Him. Why is that?
    Whether you think He was crucified or the Jews thought they crucified Him, but they did not, is irrelevant. Messiah is described in Torah as a Ruler, not someone Carpenter, who comes and then God cause Him to sky and scape, and come back.
    2. Aaron is sinless. Just because the Bible describes stories which appears to say Aaron mislead them, it does not mean the Book is corrupted. In Bible, sometimes God addresses the Sins of people through their Prophet. Muhammad is also Sinless. But in Quran it is said He asks forgiveness for His sins. Do you know the verse?
    The reason that make sense to me, and I accept it, is because, I believe God does not reveal literal history in His Books. But if I thought God speaks literal history and literal events, then I would have same problems as you do. Muhammad represents His people, as a King who Rules over His people. Then when God wants to blame the community of the Prophet, and teaches them to ask for forgiveness of Sins, He indirectly teaches this act, by addressing the Prophet. This is His mercy and Wisdom, so that He is not directly harsh on them. So, you see Muhammad asking for His sin to be forgiven to teach His people to ask for forgiveness. Same with the Prophet in the Bible.
     
  5. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    It has in literal sense these days many meanings besides that, but your argument is weak.
    I don't know why you mix your own beliefs with Islam. There is no Qaim in Islam. There is no Qaim that you speak of in the Quran. Muslims in general reject this idea completely.
    I still don't know what this "traditions" means - it's an awfully vague term. I have no idea what you're referring to. Muhammad does not have sons. It is wrong to call them his sons. The Quran also says in the ayat we have spoken of 33:40:
    "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."
    Can you quote the exact hadith? I tried but I fail to find it. All I know is that Bihar contains both authentic and inauthentic Ahadith and that I can't find any reference anywhere to the rest of these things above ^.
    That ayat is obviously about the last day.
    That's about the sacrificial ritual.
    ..... Its not even worth my time.

    "Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." 5:3
     
  6. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    "Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe: for Allah knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes." 47:19​

    It's not about his asking for forgiveness for others but about worship. He wants to be, like all real believers want to be, the best servant for Allah, so to speak. That is, he is aware of his shortcomings.
     
  7. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    The Qur'an says it is perfectly detailed.
     
  8. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The links to Hadithes are in my last post. Just click on Blue colored links. Good luck!
    You think because Qaim is not explicitly mentioned in Quran, then it is not in Quran. He is described in figurative language, not the clear language, in the same way that Muhammad is described in Injil and Torah in Figurative verses. In the same way that Jesus is described in Torah in Figurative language, not the clear verses.
    I agree it is difficult to see. This is why Jews reject Jesus to fit with Messiah. The Christians reject Muhammad to fit in the Biblical Prophecies. They say Muhammad is not in the Bible. So, you say Qaim is not in the Quran. Anyways, this is how I see it. We can agree to disagree.
     
  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I had this one in mind:

    "Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path," 48:1-2

    Obviously speaking of past and future Sins of Muhammad apparently. I don't take it literally true, do you? So, why when you see Prophets in Bible apparently had Sin, you take it literally, and insist their Book is corrupted? I think, discovery of truth requires fairness. I mean when it comes to Quran you try to justify things and defend it, but when it comes to Bible, you try to reject it. Do you see the bias?!
     
  10. jfietsam

    jfietsam Member

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    I don't know what synagogues you go to, but I went to one and just got stared at. My dad works for a small company with mostly Jewish coworkers and says it's a closed religion. I wanted to talk to a rabbi to find some direction in this confusing world, and I was told that a rabbi would not speak to me unless my mother or father was Jewish. The main emphasis was on mother though. So it's like they might be open to talking to me if my dad were Jewish, but they really expect my mother to be Jewish.

    Well ain't that some racism if I've ever heard it. A poor young adult in search of help can't even get a half hour of a rabbi's time. I wonder what they do that makes their day too busy to help someone outside of their religion who has the same beliefs about God... Oh well, I'll just stay a lone wolf. It's just God and myself in this lonely world...
     
  11. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    Yes, I do. It was revealed after the treaty of Hudaibiyah. It speaks both for Muhammad and the rest of the Muslims. The meaning of it is indeed similar to the other such passage you quoted. Forgiveness of shortcomings.
    I don't insist it is corrupted because I decide to take it literally. I insist it is corrupted because God says so. I wouldn't know.
    I don't think you are looking for the truth. You look for what you like and discard what you don't like and then you expect others to take what you like and discard what you don't like. This is not faith.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I'm not Jewish.. but you don't have to marry a Jew to convert. Find another synagogue .. Try Reformed.
     
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  13. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    We don't have any description of what is supposed to be a Messiah, we were just told it was Jesus, point.
    This is a question you should ask christians about.

    In fact I don't understand what all this discussion is about.
    I don't understand what is the problem about Jesus being a carpenter and coming back.

    That doesn't make sens at all.

    Actually i've heard some saying that prophets are just human beings and aren't sinless and that the Quran tries to show them as perfect but they were not.
    That's what i've read many times in this forum.

    You have to understand that the questions concerning sins while we're talking about prophets are never about disbelief.
    All the prophets ask for forgiveness anyway.

    You are talking without proof.
    Because you don't know how to deal with some verses you choose to say it's not litteral.
    Not all verses are litterals, there's some methaphors even in the Quran and we know that Jesus talked in parables.
    But what you say doesn't make any sense.

    It's just like saying God would blame Jesus and make people think he sinned because God wants to "teach" through him how to ask for forgiveness.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Messiah expected by the Jews was supposed to be an anointed warrior king descended from Jesse and David who would vanquish the enemies of the Jews.. presumably the Romans who occupied Palestine.
     
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  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @Remté and @Pastek
    I see There is a fundamental problem with believing Bible is corrupted, and you seem to not willing to look at it.
    You are saying Muhammad is propheside in the Bible. Therefore the Bible should guide Christians and Jews to Accepting Muhammad. But if the Bible is corrupted, how can they be guided to accept Muhammad? You say God protected Quran from corruption. Why didnt He protect Bible, so, the Christians and Jews can be guided by it to accept Muhammad? Where is the logic in this? You say Quran is the Last Book. Assuming this is true. That does not mean God would not protect the Bible from corruption so they may be guided to Quran, the last Book according to your belief. Why should God expect Christians and jews to believe in Muhammad, when their Book does not mention Muhammad?
    Why didn't God leave a clear verse in Bible, stating clearly, that There will come a Messenger whose name is Muhammad in the year 600Ad, in arabia, with a Book called Quran. Was God incapable of doing this and protect the verse to remain till now, so, all may know Muhammad was truely prophesied?
    Suppose some Scribes corrupted the Bible, according to your belief, and changed the verses about Muhammad. What is the fault of all other jews and christians who were not involved in corrupting their Book? Your story is like christians, saying because Adam sinned, all humanity is inhereting sin from Adam. Do you see how your story does not match with God, the Just, All knowing, the All powerful? The way you make it look, is as if God is unfair, incapable, or not wise to let His holy books get corrupted, and still blame all christians and jews for not believing in Muhammad. Can you explain how all this is acceptable to you? You seem to be just thinking, because some Muslims were lucky and born in a Muslim family, they are on the right path. But what about all those Chriatians who live today? If their Book contained clearly about Muhammad, they would surely accept Muhammad. So, why should they believe in Muhammad?



    The same issue was important about Messiah. You are saying Muhammad and Messiah was promised to Jews, but their Book which contained all the signs to recognize Jesus and Muhammad are corrupted. So, how can a sincere Jew today, recognize that Jesus was truely their Messiah? Their Holy Book says, Messiah is supposed to be a king. But when Jesus came He was not king, therefore they cannot believe in Jesus. What is the fault of Jews today? According to what you believe The Jews who live today were not the ones who were involved in corrupting their Books. So, why should the Jews today suffer from the act of those scribes who lived long ago? How is this fair of a God?

    The problem with your reasoning is, you claim Islam is complete and is able to guide all humanity to the right path, but if I ask you, how would a sincere jew supposed to believe in Jesus and the Muhammad, you say, it is not the problem of Islam. I say, It is the problem of Islam, because You claim Islam is from God, and is the best guidence for All sincere ones. Shouldnt Islam have all the answers to guide all to the religion, the uncorrupted one?
     
    #75 InvestigateTruth, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
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  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until Shiloh comes".

    Some Muslims teach that "Shiloh" is the Muhammed.

    Genesis 49:8-12 Until Shiloh Comes
     
  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    How should it be decided then, when to take verses literal and when not literal?
    My logic is consistent without flaws. I believe Quran is word of God. It confirms Torah and injil to be from God. It never says these Books got corrupted. It never says, there were uncorrupted Books before, but later the got corrupted. When muslims make up this idea, it is completely a conjecture. Therefore all three Books, I believe are from God, and are the truth. How do i deside when a verse or story is not literal? Whenever taking it literally is illogical. Whenever taking it literal contredicts with another verse of Bible or Quran. But your way is different. You say whenever, bible does not make sense, or contradict Quran, it is because Bible is corrupted. Your approach has two main issues, at least. One is that, there is no verse in the whole Quran which says Bible is corrupted. So, you are putting words in the mouth of Allah. The second issue, i have already explained it in details in my previous post.
    We can agree to disagree at this point.
     
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  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    What must be considered is that the muslim Faith has no power of influence in the Holy Land in this day, so this observation from your link shows it was not to be the Message of Muhammad fulfilling those passages

    "..The blessing embraces the whole history of Israel from Jacob's time until its ultimate completion...."

    The link refers to many prophecies and all I would offer is the King of Kings has been laid to rest in Israel. The one who came like a thief in the night.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    It's said in the Quran that our Book was protected by God and the Scriptures were supposed to be protected by the people themselves.

    15.6. And they (Meccans) said, “O you (Muhammad) who received the message, you are insane.”

    15.9. Surely We revealed the Message, and We will surely preserve it.

    5.44. We have revealed the Torah, wherein is guidance and light. The submissive prophets ruled the Jews according to it, so did the rabbis and the scholars, as they were required to protect God’s Book, and were witnesses to it.




    5.15 15. O People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, clarifying for you much of what you kept hidden of the Book, and overlooking much. A light from God has come to you, and a clear Book.



    Why did people who have no connection with the Scriptures believed in Jesus ?
    People had faith in Jesus because they believed the message not because there was a Messiah prophetized in a Book which was given to a little group of people.

    You started another thread about which prophets were killed by the Israelites.
    Those prophets as you quoted in a Quran verse came with proofs from God (like the fire which was a sign) yet they killed them.
    Do proofs and miracles like did Jesus or Moses made people believe ?
    This is a question of faith, you believe or not.
    You see you are focusing on the the miracles, proof, name in the Bible but this doesn't prevent someone to believe or disbelieve.



    I can ask the same question to you. Why do you believe in Bahaullah ?
    Maybe for you it's logical he is a prophet while he didn't come with any proof nor miracle nor annoucement. I guess you believe there's signs that proove he is a prophet.
    People are free to read your Book and find if he was really a prophet or not, just as jews are free to read the NT and decide if they believe in Jesus or not etc.

    Concerning the Messiah I don't have enought knowledge about what he was supposed to do.
    But even if what was said about the Kingdom of Jesus and the rebuilt of the Temple of Solomon (if i'm not mistaken) didn't realise, it didn't prevent Christians to believe. They say Jesus is Emmanuel etc
    And they don't believe the Old Testament to be corrupted, some believe in it litteraly. (i don't know if it's the fundamentalists, evangelists, JW ...)
    So as you can see corrupted or no, people can still accept someone as a prophet/messiah even if it's not clear in their own Holy Book !
     
  20. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    Ok. If when you have two versions and one is saying Aaron built an idol and another said he didn't yet you believe it's exactly the same story then you have a problem.
     
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