Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David

[Ben Avraham]

What? Where did that come from? You are trying to prove the Jewish people are the Messiah. But you haven't done so with your choice of verses.

*

Yes, I am trying to prove the Jewish People is the Messiah and it seems to me you are not ready to accept any quote from the Scriptures. So, let me try Logic. Here is what I mean: Obviously, the Messiah could never be an individual because the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Of course not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) This Messianic characteristic is possible only within the collective concept of Messiah; never of the individual. (Psalms 78:67-70) Therefore, I am sorry to rain on your parade but, Jesus is off with 2000 years already dwelling in the eternal home of the dead if you read Psalms 49:12,20.[/QUOTE]

 

[omega2xx]

As a matter of fact, I am indeed proud to have been chosen by HaShem from among all the other nations in the world.
Arrogance though, could not come from spiritual pride. Usually, the source of arrogance is in the grudge of the one being left out.

Being chosen by God should humble the one chosen, not make them proud. FYI, Christians are also God's chosen people.

 

[omega2xx]

The moral Law is codified in the Decalog. It was the Decalog that Paul meant to have released from if you read Romans 7:1-7. Where is it written "Thou shall not covet" if not in the Decalog? So, Paul meant the moral Law.

You are trying to read into that passage it is not saying. &;& gives us the purpose of the law--so we will know what God considers sin and try to avoid sinning. Instead of abolishing the law, Paul is reinforcing it. He does teach that keeping the law is not necessary for salvation. If it was we would all end up in hell.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You are trying to read into that passage it is not saying. &;& gives us the purpose of the law--so we will know what God considers sin and try to avoid sinning. Instead of abolishing the law, Paul is reinforcing it. He does teach that keeping the law is not necessary for salvation. If it was we would all end up in hell.

Well, my friend, Jesus himself implied that to achieve salvation we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. Now, you prefer to side with Paul's teaching that the Law is not necessary for salvation. As I have said before, you prefer Paul as the master, and Jesus as the servant. Consider your judgment! God gave the Law to be taught through Moses. What God consider a sin is the transgression of the Law. This is throughout the Tanach aka the gospel of Jesus. Now, you say that instead of abolish the Law, Paul reinforced it! Read Ephesians 2:15. He declared loud and clear that Jesus had abolished the Law on the cross when this was not true at all because Jesus rather confirmed the Law down to letter, even the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Regarding ending up in hell, Don't worry! Whether observing the Law down to the letter or not, we will all end up in hell aka Sheol aka the grave. (Psalms 49:12,20) To keep the Law with an eye on the reward of salvation is akin to a dog that needs a treat to do something funny. Obey the Law without the desire for compensation and the Lord will bless you without specification.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You are trying to read into that passage it is not saying. &;& gives us the purpose of the law--so we will know what God considers sin and try to avoid sinning. Instead of abolishing the law, Paul is reinforcing it. He does teach that keeping the law is not necessary for salvation. If it was we would all end up in hell.

Are you sure! If it is so, how do you explain Mat. 10:5,6? Every time Jesus sent his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation, he would warn them not to go the way to the Gentiles, specially if they were Samaritans. Considering this text, how could Christians be chosen as God's people? The answer is in Isaiah 56:1-8. Read and take your decision to get a name better than sons and daughters.

 

[omega2xx]

Well, my friend, Jesus himself implied that to achieve salvation we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31.

Moses spoke of Jesus(Lk 24:27 & 24:44). Moses told the Jews who Jesus was. That is what the Jews did not listen to.

Now, you prefer to side with Paul's teaching that the Law is not necessary for salvation. As I have said before, you prefer Paul as the master, and Jesus as the servant. Consider your judgment! God gave the Law to be taught through Moses. What God consider a sin is the transgression of the Law. This is throughout the Tanach aka the gospel of Jesus. Now, you say that instead of abolish the Law, Paul reinforced it! Read Ephesians 2:15. He declared loud and clear that Jesus had abolished the Law on the cross when this was not true at all because Jesus rather confirmed the Law down to letter, even the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

I prefer understanding what Jesus said. Since God inspired Paul what to write, He certainly isn't going to contradict Jesus.

Regarding ending up in hell, Don't worry! Whether observing the Law down to the letter or not, we will all end up in hell aka Sheol aka the grave. (Psalms 49:12,20) To keep the Law with an eye on the reward of salvation is akin to a dog that needs a treat to do something funny. Obey the Law without the desire for compensation and the Lord will bless you without specification.

All will not end up in Sheol, which is not hell. We don't keep the law for a reward, we keep it because we love God and know what he tells us is for our best good.

IMO the Jews teach you must keep the law for a reward---getting into the next life.

 

[omega2xx]

Are you sure! If it is so, how do you explain Mat. 10:5,6? Every time Jesus sent his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation, he would warn them not to go the way to the Gentiles, specially if they were Samaritans. Considering this text, how could Christians be chosen as God's people? The answer is in Isaiah 56:1-8. Read and take your decision to get a name better than sons and daughters.

Th2 Jews were not chosen for salvation over the Gentiles. The Jews were chosen for 3 reasons. First to show the the pagan nations the advantages of serving the one true God. Second the were entrusted with the oracles of God(Rom 3:2). I never can remember the third reason. I will look for it later.

Conservative Christian have Joined Israel in this task.

That is because Jesus' primary mission was to the Jews. But to show Gentiles were included in His plan, guess who He visited---A Samaritan women.

Also one is not a Jew who is one outwardly, one is a Jew who is one inwardly but he is s Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart(Rom 2:28) Christians are spiritual Jews . and we belong to Jesus we are sons of Abraham seed and heirs according to the promise(Gal 3:29)

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes, I am trying to prove the Jewish People is the Messiah and it seems to me you are not ready to accept any quote from the Scriptures. So, let me try Logic. Here is what I mean: Obviously, the Messiah could never be an individual because the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Of course not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) This Messianic characteristic is possible only within the collective concept of Messiah; never of the individual. (Psalms 78:67-70) Therefore, I am sorry to rain on your parade but, Jesus is off with 2000 years already dwelling in the eternal home of the dead if you read Psalms 49:12,20.

First - why did you bring Jesus into this? I have already said I do NOT believe in the Abrahamic religions.

I also said I could see where you are coming from.

However, your choice of verses does NOT prove the Jewish people as a whole are the "Messiah."

You say a single person can't be the Messiah - because they live then die. WELL - the Messiah is supposed to bring the END, - so why would this human - from the line of David - need to live as a human for generations?

Last, - All Jewish people are NOT from the Line of David.

*

 

[Ben Avraham]

First - why did you bring Jesus into this? I have already said I do NOT believe in the Abrahamic religions. I also said I could see where you are coming from. However, your choice of verses does NOT prove the Jewish people as a whole are the "Messiah." You say a single person can't be the Messiah - because they live then die. WELL - the Messiah is supposed to bring the END, - so why would this human - from the line of David - need to live as a human for generations? Last, - All Jewish people are NOT from the Line of David. *

This that not all Jews are from the line of David is no longer relevant. When HaShem rejected Israel aka the Ten Tribes, He confirmed Judah to remain forever as the only Kingdom on earth. (Psalms 78:67-70) So, the main part of the New Israel is Judah, about 10% that escaped Assyria and joined Judah in the South (Isaiah 6:13) plus the Gentiles who have converted to Judaism. (Isaiah 56:1-8) So, today, to be specifically from the Tribe of Judah is no longer practical because the Tribal system in Israel has been cancelled. So, the individual Messiah is no even to cogitated because the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Only the collective holds unto the characteristic concept of Messiah.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Th2 Jews were not chosen for salvation over the Gentiles. The Jews were chosen for 3 reasons. First to show the the pagan nations the advantages of serving the one true God. Second the were entrusted with the oracles of God(Rom 3:2). I never can remember the third reason. I will look for it later.

Conservative Christian have Joined Israel in this task. That is because Jesus' primary mission was to the Jews. But to show Gentiles were included in His plan, guess who He visited---A Samaritan women.

Also one is not a Jew who is one outwardly, one is a Jew who is one inwardly but he is s Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart(Rom 2:28) Christians are spiritual Jews . and we belong to Jesus we are sons of Abraham seed and heirs according to the promise(Gal 3:29)

There is no joining without conversion to Judaism according to Halacha or Jewish law. (Isaiah 56:1-8) Jesus said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. If you don't do as Jesus spoke in Luke 16:29-31, you can never claim to belong to Jesus. You belong to Paul. He was your Messiah. Jesus Messiahship was part of the People of Israel aka the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Paul was the one who claimed to have been released from the Law, not Jesus. (Romans 7:6) Christians are Christians and Jews are Jews. Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Moses spoke of Jesus(Lk 24:27 & 24:44). Moses told the Jews who Jesus was. That is what the Jews did not listen to. I prefer understanding what Jesus said. Since God inspired Paul what to write, He certainly isn't going to contradict Jesus. All will not end up in Sheol, which is not hell. We don't keep the law for a reward, we keep it because we love God and know what he tells us is for our best good.
IMO the Jews teach you must keep the law for a reward---getting into the next life.

Wrong! If you are thinking of Deuteronomy 18:18, the prophet like unto Moses was Joshua. (Numbers 27:18) Moses told the Jews nothing about Jesus but about Joshua, the prophet like unto Moses. So, you think that Paul, certainly, would not contradict Jesus! Jesus said, " I did not come to abolish the Law." (Mat. 5:17-19) Paul said that Jesus had abolished the Law on the cross and became the end of the Law. (Ephesians 2:15; Romans 10:4) That's contradiction if you want me to spell it for you. Since the beginning of man, they have all been born and ended up in Sheol. Prove the difference with Christians. The Jews teach nothing about keeping the Law for a reward. They know that only dogs need a treat aka reward to obey their masters or act funny. That's the only life we have to live. There will be no other. Let me see you listening to "Moses" aka the Law knowing that there is nothing else in the afterlife. Christians need a reward in the afterlife to behave. That's lack of trusting in the Lord.

 

[omega2xx]

Wrong! If you are thinking of Deuteronomy 18:18, the prophet like unto Moses was Joshua. (Numbers 27:18) Moses told the Jews nothing about Jesus but about Joshua, the prophet like unto Moses. So, you think that Paul, certainly, would not contradict Jesus! Jesus said, " I did not come to abolish the Law." (Mat. 5:17-19) Paul said that Jesus had abolished the Law on the cross and became the end of the Law. (Ephesians 2:15; Romans 10:4) That's contradiction if you want me to spell it for you. Since the beginning of man, they have all been born and ended up in Sheol. Prove the difference with Christians. The Jews teach nothing about keeping the Law for a reward. They know that only dogs need a treat aka reward to obey their masters or act funny. That's the only life we have to live. There will be no other. Let me see you listening to "Moses" aka the Law knowing that there is nothing else in the afterlife. Christians need a reward in the afterlife to behave. That's lack of trusting in the Lord.

No. the Passover is a picture of Jesus' sacrifice. The tabernacle is a picture of the person and work of Jesus.

 

[Ben Avraham]

No. the Passover is a picture of Jesus' sacrifice. The tabernacle is a picture of the person and work of Jesus.

Christian assumptions without foundations in the truth. What you are doing is called vandalism of the Tanach with Christian preconceived notions.

 

[omega2xx]

Christian assumptions without foundations in the truth. What you are doing is called vandalism of the Tanach with Christian preconceived notions.

It is called that by those who don't understand it.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It is called that by those who don't understand it.

As the Scriptures are concernen, the statement "do not understand it" is irrelevant if you are speaking to a Jew. Now, to understand what I am saying to you, perhaps you need to read Mark Twain's Essay about the Jews.

 

[omega2xx]

As the Scriptures are concernen, the statement "do not understand it" is irrelevant if you are speaking to a Jew. Now, to understand what I am saying to you, perhaps you need to read Mark Twain's Essay about the Jews.

It is not irrelevant no matter who I am speaking to if they say they are a follower of God. The fact that you try to make the servant of Isa 53 to be the Jews, in spite of then not fulfilling prophecies mention, show very clearly you do not understand the O.T.

In fact there are no "Scripture that say the Messiah can't die.

 

[wizanda]

n fact there are no "Scripture that say the Messiah can't die.

Careful, there are prophesies within the Messianic age, that there will no longer be death.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It is not irrelevant no matter who I am speaking to if they say they are a follower of God. The fact that you try to make the servant of Isa 53 to be the Jews, in spite of then not fulfilling prophecies mention, show very clearly you do not understand the O.T.

In fact there are no "Scripture that say the Messiah can't die.

"In spite of them not fulfilling prophecies!" Would you be able to show me a single prophecy in the Tanach that is a reference to Jesus and that he fulfilled? Thank you! Besides, the main role of the Messiah is not the fulfillment of prophecies but to serve qua Emmanuel between HaShem and Mankind. Now, if you want to verify the fulfillment of what I am saying, read Isaiah 8:8. The Prophet here identifies Judah with being Emmanuel. The child born of the virgin Israel according to Amos 5:2 to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[wizanda]

Emmanuel between HaShem and Mankind.

Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;" which is, being interpreted, "God with us."

read Isaiah 8:8.

Thanks for posting the evidence Yeshua fulfilled that prophecy within Isaiah chapter 8.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;" which is, being interpreted, "God with us." Thanks for posting the evidence Yeshua fulfilled that prophecy within Isaiah chapter 8.

According to whose assumptions, yours! Thank you but no, thanks! I prefer the revelation that Isaiah received from HaShem. (Isaiah 1:1; 2:1) Besides, if you read Job 42:7-10 we have another evidence
that Israel aka Judah is Immanuel, the representative of HaShem before all Mankind.