Men's rights, feminism, misogyny, misandry let's discuss the issues

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Says who? Not from my university as well as the discussions I’ve been involved in.

So you missed where I said "I think" too?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

So you missed where I said "I think" too?

You also said feminism and man hating is a myth. You didn’t say I think..

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You also said feminism and man hating is a myth. You didn’t say I think..

I think the much reviled "man hating feminist " is largely a myth.

Sooooo... yeah.

 

[crossfire]

As you are probably already well aware, people can become quite irrational when you critique the nomos. (The nomos usually lies just below consciousness, and it is often taken to be "self evident" without much critical thought.)

I rest my case based on the replies to this thread. Back to the Feminists Only DIR I go.

 

[Revoltingest]

I rest my case based on the replies to this thread. Back to the Feminists Only DIR I go.

Having quoted your own post,
did you just offend yourself?

 

[crossfire]

Having quoted your own post,
did you just offend yourself?

nope

 

[Stevicus]

Myth?

But more importantly this is the face of feminism on college campuses:

The woman in the first video seems like she's got an active imagination. I noticed that the video was posted three years ago and has had only about 1500 views. Not exactly indicative of the "world-wide movement" she was crowing about.

The one in the second video - she seems really angry, full of hate, and foul-mouthed. I've seen her on YouTube before. She seems to be a favorite among many of the MRA's - kind of a poster child of modern feminism.

But as I mentioned in my post to Kangaroo Feathers, most women nowadays don't even identify as feminist anymore. I don't really blame them, considering whom they'd be associating with.

 

[Revoltingest]

But as I mentioned in my post to Kangaroo Feathers, most women nowadays don't even identify as feminist anymore. I don't really blame them, considering whom they'd be associating with.

I asked Daughter if she's a feminist.
In a protesting voice, the answer was a resounding "No".
But if she took one of these internet tests, she'd rank as
one, just like her old man. So I think many women are
moving towards "egalitarian".

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Personally, I only have unconditional support for feminism.

That appears to be rubbish (sorry!).
Within feminism, there are ranging beliefs, and some are incompatible than others.

In other words, even the most strident feminist can't unconditionally support all feminist beliefs.
It's like saying you have only unconditional support for religion.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How 'bout I just say equality for men and women and we can call it a day?

Then you're an egalitarian. Which is fine. But doesn't indicate unconditional support for feminism. Which is also fine.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In undergrad, I remember taking a women's studies course and it was quite interesting and now that I'm mentioning it here I think I've brought it up before, but at any rate I believe it is a good course for anyone to take-depending on the professor. But let's be honest, in any discussion regarding women's rights especially on college campuses where you have premature liberal progressive young women just coming into their own, there exists the problem of fanaticism in telling the world you deserve equality. I find the central issue and difference between discussing racism and sexism and inequality is the fact that although inequality and injustice existed for women, women most notably white women, have historically benefited from racism and inequality experienced by people of color.

Now that thinkers and progressives have thus created the women's suffrage movement and fast forward it to today's women's rights movement we see the gradual change. But the problem I see as an egalitarian when we discuss the idea of equality is that radical feminists just like the radical white supremacists are more vocal than moderate feminists. You have the likes of Alt-right racist Richard Spencer and Chanty Binks who are loud, obnoxious, and paint this idea of this utopia in their minds. Their attractive to a cause because their voice draws attention both positive and negative. But the problem I see with these like-minded individuals is that when feminist try to create allies often times I see in literature alone there is a sense of guilt based on patriarchy but never a promotion of silence of the extremist language.

So all the while women like chanty Binx (or Binks) can be in the middle of a circle and tell men to "shut the **mod edit** up" and scream patriarchy, some men often times feel "guilted" into allying themselves with feminism because of the misappropriation of language for example:

"Do you believe in equality?"

Yes.

"Well you believe in feminism"

Okay.

"yes, you do!"

Yes, okay, but I also believe in the equality for everyone

"No, no. That is patriarchy there is no equality for everyone. Women have experienced injustice for so long and we're barely attaining some equal rights now!"

Okay but men have also experienced inequality in some areas

"No, no. That's patriarchy!"

This is how some of the dialogue usually goes, making the individual feel blame while they too mention some injustices they've experienced as men. I think the important thing any disenfranchised group who espouse equality must remember is in order to create alliances, those who you mean to target must also not be allocated and grouped as the same perpetrators of injustice. So although I may believe in some of the rhetoric of feminism I wouldn't call myself an ally to feminism. For one, feminism doesn't speak for me as a man and I really do not think feminism speaks for women of color. I think for the most part in the western world feminism speaks for disgruntled white women who have lived a conservative lifestyle in the west and are tired of living a subservient lifestyle. I don't believe in one finding themselves and then telling the world how you live is the way everyone should live. I mean everyone doesn't have to live the way you live. A hijab is not in many communities considered oppression. Some women do not want to work. Some women prefer to stay at home and be subservient to their husbands. I'm not advocating that these things are okay, but people must want change on their own. I just think considering all these wars the west has been in, are in no moral position to tell others where and how they live is wrong.

There are issues that women of color have faced for decades and feminist except some circles, were silent. I often think modern feminism moves goal posts a lot. Margaret Sanger as some feminists like to use in their literature in celebratory fashion was also the same individual who promoted the sterilization of the African-American community. The fact remains is I refuse to ally myself with a cause that continually moves goal posts and I think that is why a lot of men are put off by today's feminism. But I also think a lot of white men are put off with feminism because the model of feminism challenges their privilege and makes them aware of it so they're put off anyway. I mean, on one side you have people of color challenging the notion of white privilege and making the majority feel uncomfortable and then on top of that you have women making men aware of their gender privilege its a twofold front that a lot of men do not want to deal with.

I personally don't think feminists want to be egalitarians. I think they want to continue to differentiate their idea of equality and make that distinct from the idea of egalitarianism. I think there are some people that want subconsciously gender problems to exist because it will give their movement a voice. Egalitarianism drowns that out because YOUR problem is not the central point anymore.

It was an interesting OP, so thanks for the effort.
A fair bit to unpack, and I'm a little time poor, but some of the criticisms you have for feminism could be leveled at other mass movements too (fairly or unfairly). Race comes to mind, but also things like mass movements against globalisation, etc.

Effectively, anytime you have a broad movement, you'll have people seeking to direct it. And if you're trying to command the sea to turn, you're gonna have to yell loud.

For me, i keep things very simple, and very broad with feminism. Basically, at heart, I'm an egalitarian. To get to a position where egalitarian ideals are realised, though, we might need to take actions not consistent with egalitarian principles. This seems to apply to both race and gender. As a white, middle-classed male, I get to be the 'enemy' of some of the talking heads of both movements. Even better, republicans would see me as liberal, and liberals might see me as lacking PC credentials.

But I decided long ago not to be a reactionary. I'll think the issues through to the best of my (limited!) ability, and try to work out both what I think is right, and what I think is possible in a pragmatic sense.

So, I do consider myself a feminist. I just don't care too much whether some feminists consider me one.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The woman in the first video seems like she's got an active imagination. I noticed that the video was posted three years ago and has had only about 1500 views. Not exactly indicative of the "world-wide movement" she was crowing about.

The one in the second video - she seems really angry, full of hate, and foul-mouthed. I've seen her on YouTube before. She seems to be a favorite among many of the MRA's - kind of a poster child of modern feminism.

But as I mentioned in my post to Kangaroo Feathers, most women nowadays don't even identify as feminist anymore. I don't really blame them, considering whom they'd be associating with.

Of course not....I use an extreme but its not a representative of an entire movement but the viewpoint exist and that is the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Effectively, anytime you have a broad movement, you'll have people seeking to direct it. And if you're trying to command the sea to turn, you're gonna have to yell loud.

Understood. But the problem with that is having a grassroots movement with the intention of legislating a system of equity is that the particulars in this case, those that adhere to the movement, use extreme tactics to get their point across. For example modern feminist want allies but remain silent selectively such as in tehc ase of the recent event concerning Serena Williams. Here situation had both sexist and racist components yet no group spoke out regarding the sexism and subsequent racism that exists when it comes to Serena Williams as an athelete. For me as a member og the gender outgroup, why should I ally myself with a group that doesn't even speak for members of my own group?

This is ultimately the problem of modern feminism. Modern feminism has not put up a united front hence is why you have schisms within feminist ideology (hence the term Muslim feminist, Asian feminst etc). There are different ideas as to how equality is approached and that itself becomes problematic.