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Men's rights, feminism, misogyny, misandry let's discuss the issues

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Sep 12, 2018.

  1. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    In undergrad, I remember taking a women's studies course and it was quite interesting and now that I'm mentioning it here I think I've brought it up before, but at any rate I believe it is a good course for anyone to take-depending on the professor. But let's be honest, in any discussion regarding women's rights especially on college campuses where you have premature liberal progressive young women just coming into their own, there exists the problem of fanaticism in telling the world you deserve equality. I find the central issue and difference between discussing racism and sexism and inequality is the fact that although inequality and injustice existed for women, women most notably white women, have historically benefited from racism and inequality experienced by people of color.

    Now that thinkers and progressives have thus created the women's suffrage movement and fast forward it to today's women's rights movement we see the gradual change. But the problem I see as an egalitarian when we discuss the idea of equality is that radical feminists just like the radical white supremacists are more vocal than moderate feminists. You have the likes of Alt-right racist Richard Spencer and Chanty Binks who are loud, obnoxious, and paint this idea of this utopia in their minds. Their attractive to a cause because their voice draws attention both positive and negative. But the problem I see with these like-minded individuals is that when feminist try to create allies often times I see in literature alone there is a sense of guilt based on patriarchy but never a promotion of silence of the extremist language.

    So all the while women like chanty Binx (or Binks) can be in the middle of a circle and tell men to "shut the **mod edit** up" and scream patriarchy, some men often times feel "guilted" into allying themselves with feminism because of the misappropriation of language for example:

    "Do you believe in equality?"

    Yes.

    "Well you believe in feminism"

    Okay.

    "yes, you do!"

    Yes, okay, but I also believe in the equality for everyone

    "No, no. That is patriarchy there is no equality for everyone. Women have experienced injustice for so long and we're barely attaining some equal rights now!"

    Okay but men have also experienced inequality in some areas

    "No, no. That's patriarchy!"

    This is how some of the dialogue usually goes, making the individual feel blame while they too mention some injustices they've experienced as men. I think the important thing any disenfranchised group who espouse equality must remember is in order to create alliances, those who you mean to target must also not be allocated and grouped as the same perpetrators of injustice. So although I may believe in some of the rhetoric of feminism I wouldn't call myself an ally to feminism. For one, feminism doesn't speak for me as a man and I really do not think feminism speaks for women of color. I think for the most part in the western world feminism speaks for disgruntled white women who have lived a conservative lifestyle in the west and are tired of living a subservient lifestyle. I don't believe in one finding themselves and then telling the world how you live is the way everyone should live. I mean everyone doesn't have to live the way you live. A hijab is not in many communities considered oppression. Some women do not want to work. Some women prefer to stay at home and be subservient to their husbands. I'm not advocating that these things are okay, but people must want change on their own. I just think considering all these wars the west has been in, are in no moral position to tell others where and how they live is wrong.

    There are issues that women of color have faced for decades and feminist except some circles, were silent. I often think modern feminism moves goal posts a lot. Margaret Sanger as some feminists like to use in their literature in celebratory fashion was also the same individual who promoted the sterilization of the African-American community. The fact remains is I refuse to ally myself with a cause that continually moves goal posts and I think that is why a lot of men are put off by today's feminism. But I also think a lot of white men are put off with feminism because the model of feminism challenges their privilege and makes them aware of it so they're put off anyway. I mean, on one side you have people of color challenging the notion of white privilege and making the majority feel uncomfortable and then on top of that you have women making men aware of their gender privilege its a twofold front that a lot of men do not want to deal with.

    I personally don't think feminists want to be egalitarians. I think they want to continue to differentiate their idea of equality and make that distinct from the idea of egalitarianism. I think there are some people that want subconsciously gender problems to exist because it will give their movement a voice. Egalitarianism drowns that out because YOUR problem is not the central point anymore.
     
    #1 Epic Beard Man, Sep 12, 2018
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  2. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Long OP...I will read it later.
    btw...I think the feminist movement has been hijacked by lesbians and man-haters...who spread their falsehoods about male toxicity.
     
  3. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Men and women differ by an entire chromosome; X or Y. Men and women are different, and should not be homogenized, if the goal is natural living. Gay and Transgender may differ by an unknown gene or two and be called unique. Yet differences by an entire chromosome does not count?

    Studies have shown that men are more visually orientated, while women are more verbally orientated. Men see the differences, due to an entire chromosome, while women obey the latest verbal scam, because they do not see the lack of conceptual consistency. This difference in men and women is verified by science in that men tend to use the brain more front to back; visual center and imagination, while women tend to use the brain more side to side; audio cortex. Men and women are designed to be complements and not enemies.
     
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  4. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    There is no single feminist movement to hijack.
    But the extremists do have undue influence upon public policy.
     
  5. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Asinine, socialist-leaning, puerile filth
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    I think for many males it seems that some feminists will never be satisfied until there is equality across the board. That is, whether it is justified or not. And as Peterson will often point out - is this appropriate when males and females do seem to have different interests, abilities, and priorities such that males will often dominate one arena and females another. The STEM areas are an obvious one lacking females at the moment, with teaching and social services being dominated by females being the obverse. Equality of opportunities one can support whole heartedly and for equality of treatment in work but we are unlikely to see equal numbers of males and females in many areas - so why should we be surprised (or incensed) by this?

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-boys-girls-similar-math-abilities.html ... Boys and girls share similar math abilities at young ages, study finds

    There has been much speculation about whether lower female participation rates in STEM fields can be traced to an innate male superiority in math and science. But a new University of Chicago study wanted to test whether boys and girls actually show different mathematical abilities at their earliest developmental stages.

    But perhaps no innate attraction to such areas - and of course we should force the females to get involved - just so they are equal by numbers in everything. Or it might just be they are more attracted to other things than STEM subjects, so less participation by default. :rolleyes:
     
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  6. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    There is....and Hillary is the emblem of this decay of the Western Civilization.
     
    #6 Estro Felino, Sep 12, 2018
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  7. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Some will tell you that feminism is simply defined & of one kind.
    (It will be theirs alone.)
    Wrong pongo!
    Feminist movements and ideologies - Wikipedia
     
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  8. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    Why did I already know what the responses to this thread would be?
    T'is quite a conundrum.
     
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  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    I predicted you'd say that.
     
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  10. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I dislike what some of these newer feminists are saying, they've certainly made a mess of a good cause and of course they often ignore other issues. That however is quite normal.
     
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  11. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    Personally, I only have unconditional support for feminism.
     
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  12. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    You make a lot of good points. I had to take a moment to try to recall who Chanty Binks was, but then after a brief search, I was reminded that she was the one with bright red hair who was at a protest in Toronto yelling at male rights activists. I also recall seeing a video of her cheering about a fire alarm being set and disrupting a meeting of male rights activists taking place in the building.

    It's just not cool to pull a false fire alarm, regardless of whatever side one is on. It's not the sort of thing to be cheered or encouraged, especially since firefighting resources are limited and should not be used in this manner. It's incredibly irresponsible and wrong - not to mention illegal (at least in the U.S.). What if her home was burning down at the time? Would she have been cheering then?

    I believe in equality before the law for every human. I believe in human rights as defined by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. When I was growing up in the 70s, it was easier to grasp the concept, since terms like "gender equality" (as well as "racial equality") could be taken at face value. It was before the advent of "political correctness," so one could expect straight talk, openness, and honesty back in those days.

    It was long before anyone ever heard about "third wave feminism," which contained some of the more egregious elements of feminism which didn't exist before and which MRA's are reacting against nowadays.

    During my lifetime, I remember when women were admitted to the military service academies, and I also recall a good deal of heated public debate over allowing women to attend all-male schools, such as when one girl wanted to attend the Citadel, an all-male military academy. Anywhere there was an all-male organization of any kind, women wanted to get in to it. This was strongly supported by feminists who wanted to break down all those barriers. Even if some people didn't like the idea, it was considered progressive and movement towards true gender equality in society.

    But then, in 1990, I recall this:



    This was the moment, at least for me personally, that I started to look at feminism through more cynical eyes.

    I was flabbergasted, especially since it was relatively recent that feminists were doubling-down and going full-tilt in wanting to get women admitted to the service academies and other all-male schools like the Citadel. It seemed only fair to allow men to attend all-women schools, but this extremely negative reaction made it all too clear to me that feminists aren't interested in fairness or equality whatsoever. They were revealed as hypocrites in my eyes.

    One of the reporters in the video mentioned that the purpose of an all-female school was to produce "strong, independent women" (another buzzword of feminism), but looking at the students screaming and crying, they looked more children having a tantrum. Not the mark of "strength" or "independence."

    That, to me, is a larger litmus test of equality. The true test of feminism is not in all the enormous strides made by women in traditionally male-dominated areas (which I have supported), but it's more relevant to see how women treat men who try to break into traditionally female-dominated areas. That would, at least, demonstrate whether feminists support equal responsibility as well as equal rights. You can't have it both ways, yet a lot of these "third wavers" think they can. It's hypocrisy, plain and simple, and there are too many examples one can draw upon to demonstrate that this is more than a few "bad apples."

    This, I believe, is what MRA's are reacting against, and in my view, they have a righteous grievance.
    Either they want equality or they don't. If they think of themselves as "strong, independent women," then they'll be judged equally alongside their "strong, independent" male counterparts. This is fairness. This is equality. Isn't that what feminists said they wanted?

    If not, then what are they asking for? No one really knows, and now we're at the point where if you ask two feminists the same question, you'll get three different answers.
     
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  13. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Unconditional support for everything labelled feminism, or unconditional support for what you consider to be feminism?
     
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  14. suncowiam

    suncowiam Well-Known Member

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    Another finger pointing at Hillary comment.

    I'm going to challenge on this. Since Hillary didn't become president, how exactly is she being an "emblem of this decay of the Western Civilizations?"

    I know this is your opinion but it amounts to slander unless you have more credible points to offer.
     
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  15. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    How 'bout I just say equality for men and women and we can call it a day?
     
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  16. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Because that's pretty vague.

    It could easily be misinterpreted as egalitarianism. That isn't necessarily feminist.
    Tom
     
  17. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    While it has been quite a while since I've been in High School, when I was there it was very difficult to get into any higher math classes due to a shortage of math teachers. The math classes were packed so full that the fire martial posted a maximum person capacity for the math classrooms. They were recruiting science teachers to teach algebra and geometry, and saving the math teachers for the higher math classes.
     
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  18. suncowiam

    suncowiam Well-Known Member

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    In short, there are racist feminists.

    Some feminists shout equality for all but I would argue that is not feminism.

    Anyhows, I knew feminist from a liberal college. Even before taking her first job, she already believed she had a glass ceiling and would never succeed. I tried to argue with her but it is what it is...
     
  19. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Yeah, I don't feel that way about things at all. In fact, I'd be delighted if the construct of gender died in fire and we never had to talk about this stuff ever again.
    See, that's the problem with loud, obnoxious voices in any movement. Because they're loud and obnoxious, then people forget the rest of us
    aren't like that. They may like the spotlight, but most of us just want to be left alone.
     
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  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Oh, if it were only so straightforward.
     
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