Men have authority over women

[angellous_evangellous]

How do you translate that into a modern context then?

Households today are obviously not the same as they were at the time the Bible was written, so what does it mean today? Does it mean that women should defer all their opinions to their husband?

Ha!

The simple answer: You dont!

 

[bible truth]

Dear BT: I will not answer your post.....in the long run you do not care about what I have to say, so there is no point in indulging you.

Secondly, this thread has nothing to do with the "LDS members" of this forum.....so your way off topic.

Lastly, I heard through the "grapevine" that you wouldn't debate Katzpur because you think she reported your disrespectful and demeaning post.....well she didn't,
I should know....

Any more questions towards me....please open a new thread and pm me where to go.

Thank you,

darnell

Thanks Darnell, you already made your profession. You are a 'Mormon in training' by your title next to your name. That pretty much answers my question on which road you are on. I do believe the Bible clearly teaches predestination. By the transforming grace of God, I choose to be a disciple of Christ in training instead. God saves sinners and transforms them to the image of Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. I confess, I am a great sinner in the need of the person of work of Christ, applied by God the Holy Sprit. Since you are a professing Mormon, I will only debate with DeepShadow within your LDS Faith. I'm glad you are not a fence sitter.- BT

 

[Wandered Off]

I do believe the Bible clearly teaches predestination. By the transforming grace of God, I choose to be a disciple of Christ in training instead.

Those two sentences appear contradictory.

 

[bible truth]

Those two sentences appear contradictory.

Absolutely...it was intended that way!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thanks Darnell, you already made your profession. You are a 'Mormon in training' by your title next to your name. That pretty much answers my question on which road you are on. I do believe the Bible clearly teaches predestination. By the transforming grace of God, I choose to be a disciple of Christ in training instead. God saves sinners and transforms them to the image of Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. I confess, I am a great sinner in the need of the person of work of Christ, applied by God the Holy Sprit. Since you are a professing Mormon, I will only debate with DeepShadow within your LDS Faith. I'm glad you are not a fence sitter.- BT

Sometimes you feel like a nut, and sometimes you don't.:slap:

 

[Prometheus]

I think this is a good point: Prometheus, do you believe "headship" for men destroys inequality?If women were selected to rule over men, wouldn't that also be sexist? Seems to me that having a single head of household would always appear to be sexist against whoever isn't the head. The key is to see if that goes beyond appearances, and if if is, fix it.

If women and only women could be the heads of households then, yes, that would be sexist as well. That's not at all what I suggested. I suggested that in each marriage the more qualified leader should be the head and that's only if the couple wants a head in the first place. It should be different for each couple. God has made a sweeping judgment that in all marriages having a penis makes you the ruler.

In many military training exercises, a leader is chosen at random from the group. They are all peers, equals, yet they need a clear leader to act as head so that the group can operate. Do you think there is an advantage in having a clear leader?

There is an advantage, but that doesn't mean it always has to be a man.

Perhaps having men as heads of households was equally arbitrary, decided at the beginning of time by a cosmic coin toss. The alternative would be to have each house select their own using a basis that would appear to grant authority but would actually be backed by fiction.

Why would it be backed by fiction? Why couldn't God respect each couple individually instead of forcing the sexes into these roles?

The nontheists seem to think that the husbands abuse their wives and that is acceptable in the Bible when it is not. They take one verse out of the bible out of context to prove their points (Christians do the same thing). That is the contrary. I posted that a man is supposed to RESPECT his wife, which you ignore completely.

No. no. no.

Once again, you've twisted my words. I want you to go reread all my posts and find where I once said it was abusive or disrespectful. I've claimed one thing and one thing only. This form of marriage is sexist. Argue against it being sexist and stop using a strawman.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Once again, you've twisted my words. I want you to go reread all my posts and find where I once said it was abusive or disrespectful. I've claimed one thing and one thing only. This form of marriage is sexist. Argue against it being sexist and stop using a strawman.

What a short memory you have.

Genesis 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This was a curse on women from God. Because we know that childbirth is still painful, the curse must still be in effect. So Christians must accept that, when married, men and women are not equal partners. The man is in charge.


If you don't have a problem with men having authority over women, then you are a true Christian. If you think men and women should be equals in marriage, you're not a true Christian.

I see some additional claims - other than simply that the Bible is sexist with respect to marriage and women. You allege baselessly that people are not true Christians unless they hold to your interpretation of the text, a claim that you have not been able to sustain.

 

[Dream Angel]

Prometheus the following thing you said

"This was a curse on women from God. Because we know that childbirth is still painful, the curse must still be in effect. So Christians must accept that, when married, men and women are not equal partners. The man is in charge."

No matter how much time passes - trying to fit something the size of a watermelon out of something the size of a lemon is ALWAYS going to be painful! and I dont think its a curse - although I am yet to conceive a child being too young and unmarried, I think it is a gift as it makes women appreciate the gift of the child more! The best of things are worth working for!

 

[Prometheus]

I see some additional claims - other than simply that the Bible is sexist with respect to marriage and women. You allege baselessly that people are not true Christians unless they hold to your interpretation of the text, a claim that you have not been able to sustain.

I define a "Christian" as someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior. I define a "True Christian" as someone who follows God's commandments and instruction in their lives.

Can you refute my interpretation of the text? To do so you would have to find me a passage which says that husbands should obey their wives and be subject unto them.

 

[Prometheus]

Prometheus the following thing you said

"This was a curse on women from God. Because we know that childbirth is still painful, the curse must still be in effect. So Christians must accept that, when married, men and women are not equal partners. The man is in charge."

No matter how much time passes - trying to fit something the size of a watermelon out of something the size of a lemon is ALWAYS going to be painful! and I dont think its a curse - although I am yet to conceive a child being too young and unmarried, I think it is a gift as it makes women appreciate the gift of the child more! The best of things are worth working for!

All things are possible with God. He could stop it from being painful if He wanted to.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I define a "Christian" as someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior. I define a "True Christian" as someone who follows God's commandments and instruction in their lives.

Can you refute my interpretation of the text? To do so you would have to find me a passage which says that husbands should obey their wives and be subject unto them.

I don't refute your interpretation of the text, and in fact, I don't think that you recognize just how sexist and horrible the text really is. I think that your application of the text is exceptionally poor, being that it does not recognize two important points.

1) The command for women to submit came from Paul, not from God. I'd like to see you prove that it did indeed come from God if indeed you argue that a "True Christian" as someone who follows God's commandments and instruction in their lives.

2) If the command did indeed come from God, you need to demonstrate why you think that we should apply a text that was given to first century Christians in the Greek East the same way we apply it to people in the West today.

 

[Dream Angel]

All things are possible with God. He could stop it from being painful if He wanted to.

Having said that in a way he has! Some women have no problem in child labour, other have the help of gas and air, epidural and other pain relief - so it is possible and God gave us the knowledge to make it possible!

Have you ever heard of the story of the man on the roof of his house in a flood. I cant remember exactly how it goes but basically, lots of boats, people etc come to his aid and he says no i have faith in God he will help me. He ends up drowning and when he is in heaven he asks God, why did you not save me and God replies "What more did you want? I sent the boats etc etc etc"

Basically the moral of the story is God doesnt always directly help us, he gives the knowledge and sends the holy ghost to comfort us and help us improve and grow!

 

[Comprehend]

Those two sentences appear contradictory.

they are contradictory, and if BT meant them to be, he is an author of confusion.

 

[Wandered Off]

they are contradictory, and if BT meant them to be, he is an author of confusion.

I probably wasn't predestined to choose to understand.

 

[bible truth]

I probably wasn't predestined to choose to understand.

Predestination is a fascinating subject taught in many world religions. In the Bible, predestination is a doctrine talking about the final destination of an individual (Heaven or Hell). In Ephesians Chapter 1, God chose certain sinners to believe in Christ before the foundations of the Word. The only way you will know if you are predestined to Heaven, is to listen to the gospel of God, and read the Bible for yourself. Do you own a Bible? - BT

 

[Wandered Off]

The only way you will know if you are predestined to Heaven, is to listen to the gospel of God, and read the Bible for yourself. Do you own a Bible? - BT

I do indeed, and the part some people call "The Great Commission" would be a complete waste of time were predestination the case.

 

[DeepShadow]

What some of us find abusive is that your genitalia would be the determining factor in who has the final say on every single decision.

That would be abusive, if men were given the final say. As I already pointed out, the Bible says very explicitly that women are to submit to their husbands only insofar as the husbands submit to Christ. So that's not the final say.

 

[Gentoo]

The only way you will know if you are predestined to Heaven, is to listen to the gospel of God, and read the Bible for yourself.

If you're predestined for Heaven how does listening to the gospel of God or reading the Bible help? If you're predestined, then you're predestined and by defination will go straight to heaven upon onset of death. Am I wrong?

 

[Jistyr]

So you're saying that God is sexist because he didn't create men and women exactly the same?

No, I was merely interfering to try and protect another persons point from unfair assumptions.

 

[bible truth]

I do indeed, and the part some people call "The Great Commission" would be a complete waste of time were predestination the case.

The Gospel of John is the most predestinated book in the entire Bible. Keep reading the scriptures and pay attention to words like elect and chosen. Jesus and Paul both taught about the elect and predestination with great force. Did the original disciples choose Christ, or was it the other way around. The disciples asked Jesus why he spoke in parables (Matthew, Mark). Jesus' answer falls within the truth of predestination. Keep reading my friend! - BT