Men have authority over women

[dawny0826]

Well, it was given to a completely different culture, and I assure you that it most certainly was oppressive by today's standards.

The oppressive nature of the text has been brutally imposed by Christians for centuries, and it was not Christianity that changed the way that women relate to men, but from outside criticisms from thinkers who criticized (and criticize) Christians for their sexism. Some modern examples would be from Frued, Neitzsche, and Bertrand Russell. Without their criticisms, Christianity would still be in darkness.

Would you mind defining darkness?

 

[Mustard Seed]

angellous, you bring up some very good points....
If I could fruball you again I would!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Would you mind defining darkness?

Christianity in the West (the version that both of us are familiar with) largely followed the cosmology and anthropology of Plato as mediated through Paul, Augustine, and the Reformers (for Protestants). All of them considered women to be mutilated males who were inferior to men in every possible way. The darkness I refer to is the supersticious view of women as basically evil creatures that must be hidden, uneducated, and child-bearers. It was secular philosophers and not Christianity that delivered women.

 

[dawny0826]

Christianity in the West (the version that both of us are familiar with) largely followed the cosmology and anthropology of Plato as mediated through Paul, Augustine, and the Reformers (for Protestants). All of them considered women to be mutilated males who were inferior to men in every possible way. The darkness I refer to is the supersticious view of women as basically evil creatures that must be hidden, uneducated, and child-bearers. It was secular philosophers and not Christianity that delivered women.

I follow you and thank you for the explanation.

Do you believe that Christ intended for men to treat women as sub-standard human beings?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I follow you and thank you for the explanation.

Do you believe that Christ intended for men to treat women as sub-standard human beings?

I don't think that Christ was a social visionary. He did not speak out against many evils of his day, preaching against pedarasty, slavery, or sexism - at least according to the Gospels and the New Testament.

As for intent, I do not speculate about that kind of thing. We don't have evidence for any intents of any person, because that is simply too deep within the heart.

I can say with confidence that I don't think that God intends for Christians to subjugate women to the kind of soul-killing abuse that they have endured until recent times. When Christianity discovers that something is harmful, it should be self-correcting.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't think that Christ was a social visionary. He did not speak out against many evils of his day, preaching against pedarasty, slavery, or sexism - at least according to the Gospels and the New Testament.

As for intent, I do not speculate about that kind of thing. We don't have evidence for any intents of any person, because that is simply too deep within the heart.

I can say with confidence that I don't think that God intends for Christians to subjugate women to the kind of soul-killing abuse that they have endured until recent times. When Christianity discovers that something is harmful, it should be self-correcting.

Well said. Thanks.

 

[Vassal]

"You're taking it out of context." This is such a common answer, but people who use it rarely show how it's out of context.

This isn't just some ancient scribe saying this. It's God. If God said this then we have no reason to ignore it for the sake of "the whole."

Either God did say this and men are to rule over women or God didn't say this and the Bible is fallible. If it is the former, God is sexist. If it is the latter, there is no reason to believe anything the Bible claims.

Your definition of authority is the only thing fallible here. Authority merely means the right to control or give orders. No where in the definition of authority do I see any words such as tyrant, abuse, or more valuable, so to say that this verse is giving a man the right to be abusive, or makes a man more valuable in God’s sight than a woman cannot be held true from Genesis 3:16, and neither can it be held true from other verses.

Genesis 3:16-17 (NLT) 16 Then he said to the woman, “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.” 17 And to the man he said, “Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it. 3

Galatians 3:26-28 (NLT) 26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on the character of Christ, like putting on new clothes. 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (NLT) But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Mark 10:45 (NLT) For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Yes, a husband rules over his wife, just as Christ rules over man, but that authority is not tyrannical. If Christ, who is the head of man, came to serve and give his life as a ransom for many, then why should a husband not be expected to do the same for his wife?

 

[Prometheus]

I still have never claimed it was tyrannical, oppressive or abusive. I have claimed it was sexist. I don't think anyone has refuted me on that.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

The hostility of the LDS women and other women shown with their responses, shows the truth of Genesis 3:16.

It shows nothing of the sort.:sarcastic
I think you might find the hostility you attract has far more to do with this attitude you have that highly intelligent, thinking women should stay out of debates because your god deems them incapable of formulating thought without the aid of a man in their ear telling them what to say.
If people feel they are being demeaned,it's quite normal for them to get their hackles up. Regardless of their sex.

 

[bible truth]

You haven't mentioned the curse that befell men. Men too were cursed. Men were cursed with hard labor and work...they too were cursed with physical woes.

This is what Christ has to say about men and woman in marriage...

"But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh, so then they are no longer two, but one flesh." - Mark 10:6-9

Christ's plan was for husband and wife to join in an equal union. Husband and wives are to honor each other but first and foremost, honor God in their actions.

Women are instructed to honor their husband but husbands are also instructed within the Bible to honor their wives as well.

I agree with my sister in Christ.

God redeems men and women and joins them as one flesh, to the praise of His glorious grace. God blesses us with an equally yoked Christian spouse to glorify Him together as one flesh (household of faith). A Christian couple works together to the will of God and the joy of the believing couple. This is what God intended for marriage. The Christian couple is one in Christ. Please look at verse below. The cross of Christ is the great equalizer. Man's primary purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. As a Christian couple, we do this together. - BT

1. Galatians 3:28 (Whole Chapter)
   There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Vassal]

I still have never claimed it was tyrannical, oppressive or abusive. I have claimed it was sexist. I don't think anyone has refuted me on that.

You clearly were implying it, otherwise you would have no reason to make this post.

 

[ChristineES]

I couldn't help but notice that people have completely ignored the part where men are supposed to treat women the same as his own body, in other words to respect her. Peter also says men are to respect their wives.

If a man disrespects his wife, then that man is breaking his vows! If a man breaks his vows, then the wife will break her vows by not submitting to the man.
It also says that a woman is to submit to her husband, and not to all men!

 

[ChristineES]

I follow you and thank you for the explanation.

Do you believe that Christ intended for men to treat women as sub-standard human beings?

Absolutely not! The verses all clearly say for men to LOVE their wives and to respect them. It does not say that you should treat your wife like an animal.

If a woman is treated with respect then she would not have any problem submitting to her husband, because then he will listen to her ideas and take them into consideration.

People have a talent for taking verses and twisting the meaning around so they can demean their wives or maybe even abuse them and think that it is okay, when clearly it is not!

 

[Jistyr]

You clearly were implying it, otherwise you would have no reason to make this post.

I believe his reason to post was to prove that it was sexist, as he has said numerous times. Please do not twist words, imply things that shouldn't be implied, or make false assumptions for the sake of trying to prove your otherwise unstable point.

 

[ChristineES]

People keep bringing up the fact that women still have bad labor pain, which is true (every time I have PMS, I blame Eve, LOL). Men still have their curse too, which is having to make a living by the sweat of his brow. (women have joined into this curse)

 

[Prometheus]

So people don't care if God is sexist as long as the husband treats his wife correctly?

Much the same way no one seems to care that God allows slavery as long as the slaves are treated correctly.

 

[dawny0826]

Absolutely not! The verses all clearly say for men to LOVE their wives and to respect them. It does not say that you should treat your wife like an animal.

If a woman is treated with respect then she would not have any problem submitting to her husband, because then he will listen to her ideas and take them into consideration.

People have a talent for taking verses and twisting the meaning around so they can demean their wives or maybe even abuse them and think that it is okay, when clearly it is not!

Did you read any of my prior posts? We're on the same sheet of music.

 

[dawny0826]

So people don't care if God is sexist as long as the husband treats his wife correctly?

Much the same way no one seems to care that God allows slavery as long as the slaves are treated correctly.

Those who follow God, love God and honor God don't feel He's sexist. Respectfully, I think this is your problem.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Those who follow God, love God and honor God don't feel He's sexist. Respectfully, I think this is your problem.

I agree....majority rules.

 

[Vassal]

I believe his reason to post was to prove that it was sexist, as he has said numerous times. Please do not twist words, imply things that shouldn't be implied, or make false assumptions for the sake of trying to prove your otherwise unstable point.

So you're saying that God is sexist because he didn't create men and women exactly the same?