Men are inherently evil

[gnostic]

The Original Sin is a Christian concept. I don't think it has any merit in the Judaism.

As to being "inherent evil", I would disagree. Man has a potential for good or evil. And I don't like the word evil, because it is often misused and abused, especially from any religious group.

 

[sojourner]

Revelation in what way. Is it one man's aspiration for others or something?

The Bible includes many documents from many authors across a wide span of time. It is the "collective imagination" of humanity, hoping to explain in words that which is mostly beyond words. Therefore, a lot of poetry and metaphor is resorted to. In this way, those who believe in God have collectively told the story of their perception of God's faithfulness to God's promises, as that story has been revealed to them. We use it as a guide, (not a textbook), for our colective spiritual journey.

 

[Arrow]

I found it now i just need to not screw this up

Deu 5:9 thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I, Jehovah, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me;

Adam and Eve's sin was a sin that was to become like God meaning they worshipped themselves at that instant. As Deu points out this sin is carried out through the generations of children. This brings death, but in Ezekiel 18 (earlier referenced by Melody? i think) talks about a possibility of redemption for the essentially condemned child. Therefore the child has the option to remain sinful or turn to God.

 

[Arrow]

Also i would like to point out that no parent needs to teach their child how to say "no" because it is already programed into them.

 

[JesusOfColdstone]

Well put Arrow, I couldn't agree more.

 

[gnostic]

I don't believe that this original sin was the cause of death.

If you look at nature, nothing lives forever. Not even the sun or other stars would exist for eternity. That death was condemned upon the human race because they ate a couple of forbidden fruit, seemed too simplistic to be taken serious. The Genesis in regarding to Adam is no more than a myth of other civilisation to explain what they can't understand.

God had only condemned Adam and Eve, (and the serpent too) for these so-called sins, but can anyone explain to me why other creatures that weren't involved, also die? For all other creatures to die because what the 1st two humans have done, would seem a little harsh coming from a just god, wouldn't it?

It simply doesn't make sense. Life and death must have existed before Adam.

 

[Arrow]

quote: gnostic "I don't believe that this original sin was the cause of death.

If you look at nature, nothing lives forever. Not even the sun or other stars would exist for eternity. That death was condemned upon the human race because they ate a couple of forbidden fruit, seemed too simplistic to be taken serious. The Genesis in regarding to Adam is no more than a myth of other civilisation to explain what they can't understand.

God had only condemned Adam and Eve, (and the serpent too) for these so-called sins, but can anyone explain to me why other creatures that weren't involved, also die? For all other creatures to die because what the 1st two humans have done, would seem a little harsh coming from a just god, wouldn't it?

It simply doesn't make sense. Life and death must have existed before Adam."

When God made the Garden of Eden, He essentially put earth together in a way that it would last forever. The creation of humanity was the pinnacle of it all. The animals were only there to provide for humanity. Animals are the servants of humans. It was not until both Adam and Eve sinned that death was brought into the world. I would say that the only reason we do not die right when we are born is because God has mercy on us.

 

[gnostic]

Well, I believed that human and animals longer than the Genesis' Creation, and therefore, well before 5700 years ago. I believe in nature, not in divine creator, so essentially everything before Genesis 12 is a myth, although to me these 1st eleven chapters are the most interesting.

Nature is matter of life and death. There are no irrefutable evidences that death didn't exist before 5700 years ago, when Adam first appeared.

I am not talking about evolution. There have been fossils of modern human (homo sapien sapien) that are older than 10,000 years, and it is clear death existed for these earlier humans, well before Adam's so-called creation and banishment from Eden.

So the Genesis and your interpretation of the bible that death exist until Adam ate the fruit, is merely a metaphor of how death began, but this can hardly qualify as proof.

 

[Arrow]

The Bible actually goes back an unkown amount of years. For in the Bible it says a day is like a thousand years and thousand years is like a day. Not only that people in the Bible lived up to 900 years old. Unfortunately, the timeline of the Bible cannot be determined. Adam could have well lived 5 billion years ago. It is one of those things that we will never know. I assume that you know that homosapiens lived over ten thousand years by carbon dating which has been a proven flawed system of dating. I could be wrong and if i am i apologize.

 

[sojourner]

I found it now i just need to not screw this up

Deu 5:9 thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I, Jehovah, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me;

Adam and Eve's sin was a sin that was to become like God meaning they worshipped themselves at that instant. As Deu points out this sin is carried out through the generations of children. This brings death, but in Ezekiel 18 (earlier referenced by Melody? i think) talks about a possibility of redemption for the essentially condemned child. Therefore the child has the option to remain sinful or turn to God.

We really need to look at cultural anthropology here. In the culture of the Deuteronomy author, the household, including women, sons, daughters, servants, extended family and visitors was under the leadership and auspices of the father, who was the head of the household. Therefore, whatever the father did, reflected on everyone else that lived under his roof. If the father acted dishonorably, the whole household was seen by the society to be dishonorable.

 

[michel]

I saw this from a poster. Men are inherently evil. I don't know about religion but it is evident in the bible since it says that every singel human being had original sin to begin with. Sin and evil comes hand in hand so the statement appears to be true, if you are a believer in the bible.

There is a distinct difference between "Men being inherently.................", and "Men having the opportunity to bring out or suppress that ability to be evil".

Choice. Although I know that we have had enough debates of whether we have free will or true choice; since I believe we do, that is the difference.

 

[Arrow]

Sojourner: We really need to look at cultural anthropology here. In the culture of the Deuteronomy author, the household, including women, sons, daughters, servants, extended family and visitors was under the leadership and auspices of the father, who was the head of the household. Therefore, whatever the father did, reflected on everyone else that lived under his roof. If the father acted dishonorably, the whole household was seen by the society to be dishonorable.

I could be wrong so correct me if i am, but the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses with God telling him what to write every step of the way. I would say that it would be safe to assume that the translation would also be a literal translation because most everything in the Pent. were spelled out for the Isrealites. Iniquity is not synonymus with dishonorable. I am sure that this would bring dishonor to the family, but it more importantly brought sin to the family.

 

[ProfLogic]

I could be wrong so correct me if i am, but the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses with God telling him what to write every step of the way. I would say that it would be safe to assume that the translation would also be a literal translation because most everything in the Pent. were spelled out for the Isrealites. Iniquity is not synonymus with dishonorable. I am sure that this would bring dishonor to the family, but it more importantly brought sin to the family.

The writters of the bible were never identified. They were just given letters.

 

[Arrow]

quote: proflogic "The writters of the bible were never identified. They were just given letters."
What do you mean?

 

[ProfLogic]

The writters of the bible were never identified. They were just given letters.

meaning letters to their names not even actual people, so it would be hard to confirm. Jesus never wrote anything in the bible...

 

[michel]

I saw this from a poster. Men are inherently evil. I don't know about religion but it is evident in the bible since it says that every singel human being had original sin to begin with. Sin and evil comes hand in hand so the statement appears to be true, if you are a believer in the bible.

I just realised; you are being highly sexist here; what about the 'fair sex' ? "Fair ?":thud:

 

[Arrow]

Logical (no Bible) to explain why people are inherently evil. What i am getting at is the first reaction that goes through your mind. Not the one that you have had to develop over time or train yourself differently. Try to imagine yourself being a kid.
When someone pushes you, you want to?
The only way to escape being spanked by your mother is to lie to her so you?
If someone asks you to do something that you do not really want to do you?
A child's first words maybe Dada or moma, but you never have to teach a kid to disobey?
Listening is something almost everybody has to work at.
If we were inherently good, are first impulses would be to do something good followed by an evil thought. However, we first think about revenge when someone pushes us and then rationalize what the right thing is.

 

[ProfLogic]

I just realised; you are being highly sexist here; what about the 'fair sex' ? "Fair ?":thud:

During that era they were fairly chauvanistic to begin with. Men use to include women until the politically correct era came to be ... womens liberation. etc...

 

[Melody]

Also i would like to point out that no parent needs to teach their child how to say "no" because it is already programed into them.

ROFL....Arrow...you must have kids, yes?

 

[Arrow]

quote: melody "ROFL....Arrow...you must have kids, yes?"

Not yet, but I do teach martial arts and the elementary kids class does everything but listen to me.