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Featured Meiosis: The Science of Messiah.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by John D. Brey, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Two of our foremost modern evolutionists have failed to explain to their own satisfaction the advantage of this extraordinary procedure [meiosis] for the individual organism. . . When we try to solve the paradox of the cost of meiosis, perhaps instead of worrying about how sex helps the organism we should search for replicating `engineers' of meiosis, intracellular agents which actually cause meiosis to happen . . . Although at present it is just a joke to picture chromosomes being dragged kicking and screaming into the second anaphase by ruthlessly selfish centrioles or other miniature genetic engineers, stranger ideas have become common place in the past. And, after all, orthodox theorizing has so far failed to dent the paradox of the cost of meiosis.

    Richard Dawkins.​

    Of all evolution's pesky problems, for instance, irreducibly complex structures and organisms, design without a designer, etc., etc., meiotic sex, and meiosis and polar body in particular, present the ultimate Gordian knot. They standout like a sore thumb challenging materialistic scientists to put their money where their mouth is and explain why organisms would pay so high a cost for meiotic sex when the smartest mammals around, with the fastest computers, and the best educations money can buy, can't, for the life of them, even dent the paradox of meiosis and polar body. Lynn Margulis and Dorian Sagan second Richard Dawkins:

    At first --- even second-glance, this kind of sex [meiotic] seems a superfluous and unnecessary bother. It has none of the virtues of the free bacterial genetic transfer associated with the world-wide microcosm. In the economic terms that biologists have used to describe it, the `cost' of this kind of sex-producing special sex cells with half the usual number of chromosomes, finding mates, and timing and performing the act of fertilization-seems all out of proportion to any possible advantage.​

    Perhaps the scientists should set their biology books aside and look at what the greatest Book ever written has to say about meiosis and polar body as it relates to Messiah?




    John
     
  2. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Scientists aren't sure .... SO GOD DID IT!!

    Err no, more research needed before your god of the gaps stands scrutiny
     
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  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . I think you may have made a semantic gaff since it's not that the scientists are unsure. They haven't a clue to be sure or unsure about. They have no theory for the existence of meiotic sex.

    On the other hand, the Bible explains it to a tee in a manner that fits the current scientific framework of evolution and natural selection.



    John
     
  4. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    One possibility may be that there is no immediate, direct benefit to the individual. As with all of evolution, the 'benefit' (reproductive success) operates on the level of the population, not the individual.

    But of course, whether or not we can prove that is true or not may take considerably more time and effort than we have currently devoted to resolving what is not apparently very important of a question, evolutionarily speaking.
     
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Does this greatest book ever written explain why God did such a crappy job on reproduction? Errors in meiosis is the leading cause of birth-defects. Is there some reason that God wanted children to be born with birth defects?
     
  6. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Really? Where exactly does the Bible describe meiosis?
     
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  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Okay.... so what is that explanation?
     
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  8. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . I don't think our ability or inability to answer a scientific question should be the criteria for how important the question is. In other words, if we can't answer the question, we can, for that reason alone, assume it's not important (since we can't answer it anyway). But that's kinda shady in my opinion.

    Nevertheless, the Bible can answer the question and answer it scientifically.



    John
     
  9. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    it is not an important question.

    And please, illuminate us as to how the Bible answers the question 'scientifically'
     
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  10. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Great, let's hear it.
     
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  11. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    This article seems to offer two hypothesis for the developpement of meiosis as well as a few evolutionnary advantages to it that would have made it a selectable trait by nature.

    Origin and function of meiosis - Wikipedia.

    Here's a scientific paper that discuss it a little bit more in detail. It details the advantage of protein recombination, the basis of meiosis, to repair damages on RNA and DNA strands. In other words, sexual reproduction might have begun as a healing mechanism that was adapted to reproduction function by evolutionnary forces.

    On the Origin of Meiosis in Eukaryotic Evolution: Coevolution of Meiosis and Mitosis from Feeble Beginnings

    This one is a bit less specific, but free.

    Evolutionary mysteries in meiosis
     
    #11 epronovost, Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  12. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . That's another thread. Your question was answered pretty well in the thread on why God would make nature so cruel. A crucible burns off the worthless impurities leaving that which can withstand the purification process.

    Even the defects, and deformities, work to God's ultimate and perfect end.



    John
     
  13. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . The Bible was not only written in ancient languages, Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew (mostly), but it was written in an ancient manner whereby signs and symbols condense complex scientific knowledge into sacred myths, signs, and symbols.

    So though the word "meiosis" doesn't exist in the text, the concept is completely explained in the ancient myths and symbols.



    John
     
  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ok, so lucky us, we gets the cruel God.

    Why make us imperfect in the first place so we have need of having our impurities being removed?
     
  15. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Can you quote us a section where the Bible uses this "ancient manner whereby signs and symbols condense complex scientific knowledge into sacred myths, signs, and symbols."

    So you're telling us that somewhere in the text it says that the genetic material is normally arranged in pairs and are reproduced through duplication (that is, mitosis), but that sexual reproduction operates through a different process?

    Can you show us where 'signs and symbols' are used to create 'myths, signs, and symbols' that can only be understood as describing knowledge of biological processes that have only been identified in the last 150 or so years?

    Please be specific in your citations.
     
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  16. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    In the Darwinian theory of evolution, the environment produces the selection pressures that cause organisms to change according to which organisms survive the dangers and take advantage of the advantages which exist in the environment.

    Until more recently, Darwinists were adamant that there was no thoughtful, or design oriented, survival strategy in the organism itself. The environment and the environment alone determined which organisms would live, and which would die.

    When we add to that picture the fact that the early organisms were all immortal, they only died if the environment killed them, we have the basis for not only understanding the evolutionary development of mammals, but once we understand the events that led to mammals, we can understand one of the greatest secrets hidden in nature's admittedly rich arsenal of secrets, the secret guarded by nature's death-wielding serpent of death: the secret of what meiosis has to do with the ancient, almost universal, mythological concept of a messianic son of God?

    Are you aware that the first organisms were for the most part immortal? They only died if the environment ended their life. They didn't grow old and die through death programmed into the very DNA of the organism.

    Do you thus realize that there was a trade made between the environment, and the organism, that allowed some of the selection pressures completely owned by the environment (initially) to be shared with, and by, the organism: that the organisms accepted death into the previously immortal DNA in a trade for getting to pay a role in the selection of which organism would live, and which would die?

    If you understand these two truisms you have the key to unlocking the greatest secret of the Bible: the person and purpose of an alleged messianic son of God within a purely scientific framework.



    John
     
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  17. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    No, it doesn't.
     
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  18. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    That is not an explanation and it lacks quotes from the bible. I have a suspicion that you want us to believe there is an explanation without showing us. You'll have to troll harder.
     
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Absurd.

    Theories in science have to be able predict what observations can be expected. In other words they have to be testable. Science is quite happy to say "we don't know" until a proper theory, meeting these criteria, is found.

    The bible is not science and makes no testable predictions about nature.
     
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  20. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . I see. You appear to be under the miss-impression that you are yourself omniscient and omnipotent. . . What need have you of a messiah or a god.



    John
     
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