Maybe Some in The Men's Right Movement Want Violence

[Revoltingest]

I think the number of areas where men face a lot of injustice is a lot smaller than the number of areas where women face a lot of injustice. In other words, I believe male privilege overall is very real, as expressed politically, socially, financially, etc. But, for some of those areas, I do believe men have some legitimate injustices and I support them in those areas.
-Men should have equal say in child custody. I feel strongly about this because it happened to me: my father lost custody of four-year-old-me to my mother who was significantly less qualified to have custody of me.
-Both men and women should be able to be drafted, if there's going to be such a thing as a draft. (Generally I'd argue strongly against a draft 99% of the time.)
-Men should not get more prison time for the same crimes as women.

Perhaps it would be more accurate & complete to say that male privilege is greater than female privilege.

 

[Penumbra]

you are equal in civil court and in criminal court.

That is not necessarily true.

To say that men and women are not equal in court, does not mean there's literally a law that separates the two. But juror and judge bias can separate the two.

It's like there's no law that stops women from becoming CEOs, but only a tiny number are CEOs. It's a social issue, not a legal issue.

 

[Apex]

There has been no draft for decades.

American men are required to register for the draft at age 18. And you are unable to do certain things, like receive financial aid for college, until you show proof that you have registered.


And as for the OP, some people need to look in the (figurative) mirror. All groups have their fringe. Raving about the "others" fringe while ignoring your own only makes you look ignorant.

 

[Bunyip]

That is not necessarily true.

To say that men and women are not equal in court, does not mean there's literally a law that separates the two. But juror and judge bias can separate the two.

It's like there's no law that stops women from becoming CEOs, but only a tiny number are CEOs. It's a social issue, not a legal issue.

That is my point. Men and women are equal in court and under the law, the differences are social issues, not legal.

 

[Bunyip]

American men are required to register for the draft at age 18. And you are unable to do certain things, like receive financial aid for college, until you show proof that you have registered.


And as for the OP, some people need to look in the (figurative) mirror. All groups have their fringe. Raving about the "others" fringe while ignoring your own only makes you look ignorant.

Sure, but there is no draft. It is hardly an example of men's rights being infringed upon.

 

[Apex]

Sure, but there is no draft. It is hardly an example of men's rights being infringed upon.

The fact that all military aged men in the US can be forced to go to war at the drop of a hat, yet all women are exempt, is perfectly fine with you?

 

[Penumbra]

That is my point. Men and women are equal in court and under the law, the differences are social issues, not legal.

But those social issues need to be challenged, and people need to be aware of them, because they can be just as oppressive.

If a man loses custody of a child for an unjust reason based on gender discrimination, the fact that it was just social bias of the judge, doesn't make that any better.

Truly egalitarian cultures aren't just based on laws; they're based on wide social acceptance of egalitarian values.

 

[dust1n]

The fact that all military aged men in the US can be forced to go to war at the drop of a hat, yet all women are exempt, is perfectly fine with you?

I'd prefer everyone being in it together, but can you imagine the amount of manliness I'd have to sacrifice to maintain this position?

 

[Bunyip]

The fact that all military aged men in the US can be forced to go to war at the drop of a hat, yet all women are exempt, is perfectly fine with you?

You have not had conscription for decades. And no, in my opinion the US should dismantle its armed forces.

 

[Bunyip]

But those social issues need to be challenged, and people need to be aware of them, because they can be just as oppressive.

If a man loses custody of a child for an unjust reason based on gender discrimination, the fact that it was just social bias of the judge, doesn't make that any better.

Truly egalitarian cultures aren't just based on laws; they're based on wide social acceptance of egalitarian values.

Im not sure what assumptions you are working under. As for myself, I am a single parent male who won custody and so could you please identify specific cases?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Gotta say the men's rights folks at RF are pretty cool.

I think it's something in the water.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

To be fair, that site has a place for people to rant about guys, too. So a woman can go on there and post something equally nasty about men. In fact, the replies to that post are just as nasty and stupid. It's just a flaming trollathon. Lol.

Of course. But like I said, that's at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to misogyny.

I think for the most part, MRA sites as a whole are largely in the middle.

 

[Penumbra]

Im not sure what assumptions you are working under. As for myself, I am a single parent male who won custody and so could you please identify specific cases?

Women have custody of children more frequently than men, and women who have custody are more likely to also be awarded child support, than men who have custody. These are statistics for my country but I believe they probably apply broadly.
Source.

Part of that probably has to do with some real statistical behavioral differences. In other words, the huge split isn't just due to court bias. So, it can very well be the case that women are more likely to want custody, to deserve custody, etc. But it does seem to be an uphill battle for men, and so when they argue that they are discriminated against on the basis of gender in custody court cases, I sympathize. Men are often less trusted around children in general, like there are often ads for babysitters that explicitly state a female preference.

For a specific case, my father lost custody of me at age 4 to my mother, despite the fact that he was more qualified to have custody of me. So, seeing the statistics, and then seeing one clear real world example, makes me sympathetic to the idea that men face discrimination regarding child custody, and lots of other things related to children as well.

 

[Bunyip]

Women have custody of children more frequently than men, and women who have custody are more likely to also be awarded child support, than men who have custody. These are statistics for my country but I believe they probably apply broadly.
Source.

Part of that probably has to do with some real statistical behavioral differences. In other words, the huge split isn't just due to court bias. So, it can very well be the case that women are more likely to want custody, to deserve custody, etc. But it does seem to be an uphill battle for men, and so when they argue that they are discriminated against on the basis of gender in custody court cases, I sympathize. Men are often less trusted around children in general, like there are often ads for babysitters that explicitly state a female preference.

For a specific case, my father lost custody of me at age 4 to my mother, despite the fact that he was more qualified to have custody of me. So, seeing the statistics, and then seeing one clear real world example, makes me sympathetic to the idea that men face discrimination regarding child custody, and lots of other things related to children as well.

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but as you say - these are social issues, not legal issues. Men's rights are not being compromised, there are just many imbalances in any society.

There are ways in which women are disadvantaged, and ways in which men are disadvantaged. On the whole I think that men are better off.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but as you say - these are social issues, not legal issues. Men's rights are not being compromised, there are just many imbalances in any society.

There are ways in which women are disadvantaged, and ways in which men are disadvantaged. On the whole I think that men are better off.

On the whole, yes.

That's when that nasty word "privilege" comes up to describe the social advantages and legal advantages. But there's a backlash that comes with it when people say it.

It's like He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named...say it and dark forces suddenly appear.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but as you say - these are social issues, not legal issues. Men's rights are not being compromised, there are just many imbalances in any society.

These issues are both social & a matter of law. Law determines who is eligible for the draft.
Standard legal practice & court rules determine many things which disadvantage men.
Perhaps you, as a foreigner, are unaware of what we say about problems in the US.

 

[Penumbra]

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but as you say - these are social issues, not legal issues. Men's rights are not being compromised, there are just many imbalances in any society.

Rights aren't really rights unless they're being put into practice. If men and women have equal right to custody on paper, but socially-biased judges do indeed favor women statistically, then men's rights are indeed being compromised on that issue, and they are right for creating awareness about that.

There are ways in which women are disadvantaged, and ways in which men are disadvantaged. On the whole I think that men are better off.

I agree.

 

[Gehennaite]

Meh. It's just rhetoric. People can threaten and intimidate all they want. They know that the second they'd act out violently they'd be crushed by police or military.

 

[Bunyip]

Women have custody of children more frequently than men, and women who have custody are more likely to also be awarded child support, than men who have custody. These are statistics for my country but I believe they probably apply broadly.
Source.

Part of that probably has to do with some real statistical behavioral differences. In other words, the huge split isn't just due to court bias. So, it can very well be the case that women are more likely to want custody, to deserve custody, etc. But it does seem to be an uphill battle for men, and so when they argue that they are discriminated against on the basis of gender in custody court cases, I sympathize. Men are often less trusted around children in general, like there are often ads for babysitters that explicitly state a female preference.

For a specific case, my father lost custody of me at age 4 to my mother, despite the fact that he was more qualified to have custody of me. So, seeing the statistics, and then seeing one clear real world example, makes me sympathetic to the idea that men face discrimination regarding child custody, and lots of other things related to children as well.

I do understand the perceived bias in relation to family court issues. The same thing occurs in my country.

Just so you know, it took me 5 years in court to get custody of my son. I went to court about 25 times and it cost me my entire net worth (and then some).

I have had a great deal of time to think about this particular field.

So my take is that people get together and have kids. They then break up and can not agree on what to do with those kids.

We then expect the government to decide on the ultimate outcome of our personal relationship because we can not.

It is no surprise whatsoever that the state is not very good at defining the outcomes of personal relationships and family arrangements.

While I agree that family court decisions are often biased, I honestly do not know how best to do it. You can not divide children, it is not always good for the kids to be split between two households - and whatever the state decides it will cause inequities and complications in the future.

What we need as a society is to accept that having kids is for life. Sure you can breakup, but you still remain parents and responsible for the kids you have created. An agreement made between 2 people in equal positions of power will tend tombe far better than an agreement defined by the legal system.

My principle objection to the men's rights movement is that we need to address inequity as a society, not as a specific sex.

No matter what sex the people involved, what should concern us is that they recieve equitable treatment.

 

[Apex]

Anyone else noticed this double standard?

Violence rhetoric from MRMs; a serious issue that needs to be confronted.
Violence rhetoric from Feminists; manufactured controversies, satire, and not real feminists.