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Maybe Communist China ought to realize who's actually playing with fire.

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Sunrise is alluding to the appeasement policy. When Germany, long ago, start to blitzkrieg into countries they first went into Poland. The nations discussed what to do, and they decided that appeasement was the answer. The nations decided Germany would be satisfied with Poland and that there was no point having a global war over it. This did not work. Hence Sunrise is suggesting its the same with Taiwan, that appeasement will only lead to more invasions and territory grabs.
That's why history is so important. So people can avoid making the same mistakes.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
speaking of that, why do they even want the Uyghur territory though.. isn't that all just desert. Why not just give it up

It is part of a massive region that actually is somewhat diverse in terms geological resources. Plus it borders Russia, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, among others. There is no way the Chinese government will give up control there.

upload_2021-4-14_19-28-14.png

Xinjiang - Wikipedia
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Some will leave and become irritants and activists. The mainland government will not like it, particularly if the people reestablish a remote Chinese government somewhere else. After all that's why mainland wants to take over Taiwan, because it has the old culture and the old enemy. First rule of war is to offer the enemy an empty victory.

It seems like the Mainland government is obsessed with Taiwan.

Taiwan's population is 23.8 million, so it would be no small evacuation. There are Chinese people living all over the world, including the U.S. - many of whom have been vocal critics of the Mainland Chinese government.

Exactly what mainland desires? I don't think its a good strategy.

Hard to say. China has a large military and all, but do they really want to go to war that badly for Taiwan? How many casualties are they willing to incur to conquer Taiwan, and would they continue to have the support of the people if they see their loved ones coming home in body bags? The Soviets got bruised and bloodied when they tried to take over a much smaller Finland.

There's also a matter of being able to keep Taiwan under control, assuming that they're successful in conquering it.

Yes, and they should be at the table when decisions are made about what is to be done. Perhaps they wish to unify. I think that would (militarily) be smart. As mere allies they are not terribly strong, but if they were to form a union they would be another world power, and I think they could do so.

It would be interesting if they did. Maybe they could revive SEATO or form some similar alliance. Or maybe just expand NATO into a global alliance. Originally, CENTO and SEATO were established with similar goals as NATO. There's also the OAS. We could conceivably form a massive worldwide alliance that could stand up to China.

Russia and US may spat but are brothers. I would suppose Russia might try to use it to gain advantage of some kind but is not interested in destroying us outright. Another thing is Russia may do some distraction or try to gain diplomatic gains in trade with China, so that is another thing to consider. We actually had an entire cold war with the USSR and didn't destroy each other. That is brotherhood.

Well, all three countries have had their ins and outs with each other. Russia vs. China, China vs. America, Russia vs. America - all at various times. Although we were all allies during WW2, more or less. It was a bit complicated with China at war with Japan (but not with Germany) and Russia at war with Germany (but not with Japan, not until the very end). But they still remember that, and that may have been a key factor in our not going to war with each other. There was a brief period when we were the sole possessor of atomic weaponry, and we could have brought down a world of hurt upon Russia or China, but we didn't. Patton and MacArthur wanted to do that, but they were overruled.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems like the Mainland government is obsessed with Taiwan.

Taiwan's population is 23.8 million, so it would be no small evacuation. There are Chinese people living all over the world, including the U.S. - many of whom have been vocal critics of the Mainland Chinese government.
It would be no small evacuation, and the citizens would lose much. The upside is the message it would send, and it would be historically unforgettable. I think it would be a complete repudiation, completely rebuking the regime seeking legitimacy through war.

Hard to say. China has a large military and all, but do they really want to go to war that badly for Taiwan? How many casualties are they willing to incur to conquer Taiwan, and would they continue to have the support of the people if they see their loved ones coming home in body bags? The Soviets got bruised and bloodied when they tried to take over a much smaller Finland.

There's also a matter of being able to keep Taiwan under control, assuming that they're successful in conquering it.
Its a dictatorship or small oligarchy. The people at the top do not have to care who dies, much like kings don't. They have sought greatness and unquestioning control over billions of lives by murdering political rivals. Yes they'll go to war as long as their own skin is not at risk.

Well, all three countries have had their ins and outs with each other. Russia vs. China, China vs. America, Russia vs. America - all at various times. Although we were all allies during WW2, more or less. It was a bit complicated with China at war with Japan (but not with Germany) and Russia at war with Germany (but not with Japan, not until the very end). But they still remember that, and that may have been a key factor in our not going to war with each other. There was a brief period when we were the sole possessor of atomic weaponry, and we could have brought down a world of hurt upon Russia or China, but we didn't. Patton and MacArthur wanted to do that, but they were overruled.
Russians (and Ukrainians) have similar ideals to Americans. They have similar religion. They have a similar secular component in their societies. The largest difference is their language with its Slavic letters.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be no small evacuation, and the citizens would lose much. The upside is the message it would send, and it would be historically unforgettable. I think it would be a complete repudiation, completely rebuking the regime seeking legitimacy through war.

I would guess many would still wish to remain on Taiwan. After all, people are often inclined to remain at home, regardless of whatever government rules over it. Occasionally, I read histories of some of Europe's towns and cities, and it astounds me how many flag changes some of these cities go through over the course of centuries.

Its a dictatorship or small oligarchy. The people at the top do not have to care who dies, much like kings don't. They have sought greatness and unquestioning control over billions of lives by murdering political rivals. Yes they'll go to war as long as their own skin is not at risk.

Even in a dictatorship, they still have to appease the mob in one form or another. All of the economic good fortune their population has seen in recent decades could dry up rather quickly if they're ostracized and sanctioned by most of the world over an aggressive invasion of Taiwan.

Russians (and Ukrainians) have similar ideals to Americans. They have similar religion. They have a similar secular component in their societies. The largest difference is their language with its Slavic letters.

Yes, those who were influenced by the Western Roman Empire use the Latin alphabet, while those who were influenced by the Eastern Roman Empire use the Cyrillic alphabet. That was a rather strong schism which existed for a while, and maybe it still exists today, to some extent.

Of course, it does bring up something about Russian history and their relationship to the Byzantine Empire. There's the idea that Moscow is the "Third Rome," with Constantinople being considered the "Second Rome," since they were what was left of the Roman Empire after the First Rome fell. But then, Constantinople fell in 1453, which is something the Russians never really forgot. In fact, for centuries, one of their main foreign policy objectives was the retaking of Constantinople, which led to numerous wars between Russia and Turkey. The Crimea and Ukraine also figure into this history as well, since Turkey also controlled the Crimea and portions of present-day Ukraine.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Thats a valid perspective.

Doesn't it strike one as being peculiar that both Russia and China together almost simultaneously had made strategic military build-ups and shows of force out in the open?
It is concerning. The administration needs to be careful.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It is concerning. The administration needs to be careful.

Well, I guess the words of Teddy Roosevelt might be apropos here: Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

There always seems to be a fair amount of rhetoric and loud talk publicly communicated between the superpowers, but that seems more for public consumption than anything else. We can tone down the rhetoric while quietly building up our forces and strengthening our alliances around the world.

The U.S. can't stand alone, but NATO and our other allies are not weak.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Oh great. Team America, World Police, again. Really?

Perhaps you guys should consider sorting your own police out before you try policing the world?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So far most arguments against defending Taiwan seem to be based in fear of China's power, but if you wouldn't want to fight a war on foreign soil you really really don't want a war on the home front.

And if you dont draw the line far from home with these expansionist types whats to stop them expanding in power and territory till it *is* war on the home front?

In my opinion Taiwan's people should be allowed to vote on whether they wish to evacuate or stay and fight, and if the majority wish to fight a no fly zone should be drawn up over Taiwan and vigorously defended by Taiwan and its allies (i dont actually know if Australia is allied to Taiwan, but if the US gets drawn in Australia would possibly follow).
 
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