May be headed to Theistic Luciferianism

[EtuMalku]

Read it again, you'll find it.

There are no Christian bible stories about Lucifer

 

[Deidre]

The ''fall'' of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 could be likely the same Lucifer that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” He is also depicted in Ezekiel 28.

According to Ezekiel 28:13, a probable reference to Lucifer, we learn that he is an amazing being to behold: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created."

There are also the interpretations that what is being described is a human king, etc. But, this isn't the only interpretation, Bible ''scholars'' often offer both stories.

 

[EtuMalku]

The ''fall'' of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 could be likely the same Lucifer that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” He is also depicted in Ezekiel 28.

St. Jerome placed the word Lucifer into the Christian bible . . .
Isaiah 14:12 according to the Vulgate translation:
"Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestries"

The Hebrew translation had the word helel in the place of Lucifer, or rather St. Jerome replaced the word helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’.

In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. This task was completed sometime during the 5th century AD, and eventually it was considered the official and definite Latin version of the Bible according to the Roman Catholic church. By the 13th century it was considered the versio vulgate – the common translation.

According to Ezekiel 28:13, a probable reference to Lucifer, we learn that he is an amazing being to behold: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created."

There are also the interpretations that what is being described is a human king, etc. But, this isn't the only interpretation, Bible ''scholars'' often offer both stories.

This story is about the serpent in the garden / Satan, not Lucifer.

 

[Liu]

St. Jerome placed the word Lucifer into the Christian bible . . .
Isaiah 14:12 according to the Vulgate translation:
"Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestries"

The Hebrew translation had the word helel in the place of Lucifer, or rather St. Jerome replaced the word helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’.

In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. This task was completed sometime during the 5th century AD, and eventually it was considered the official and definite Latin version of the Bible according to the Roman Catholic church. By the 13th century it was considered the versio vulgate – the common translation.

This story is about the serpent in the garden / Satan, not Lucifer.

Helel is actually a Semitic deity which was equated with the morning star (similar to the Roman deities Venus and Lucifer). From that perspective it makes lots of sense to translate Helel to Lucifer when translating from Hebrew to Latin.

Helel already was associated with a myth of being fallen from grace (which is why in Isaiah he is used as a metaphor for a Babylonian king who lost his power), and so this was then also associated with the name of Lucifer, which made Christians equate him with their concept of Satan since they had similar myths of him.

But that whole concept seems to have been pretty popular among Semitics; in the apocryphs also other characters can be found with a myth of falling from grace, e.g. the angel Shemyaza in the Book of Enoch.

Whether that then means that one should equate all these beings I'll leave to the theists.

 

[EtuMalku]

Helel is actually a Semitic deity which was equated with the morning star (similar to the Roman deities Venus and Lucifer). From that perspective it makes lots of sense to translate Helel to Lucifer when translating from Hebrew to Latin.

Helel already was associated with a myth of being fallen from grace (which is why in Isaiah he is used as a metaphor for a Babylonian king who lost his power), and so this was then also associated with the name of Lucifer, which made Christians equate him with their concept of Satan since they had similar myths of him.

But that whole concept seems to have been pretty popular among Semitics; in the apocryphs also other characters can be found with a myth of falling from grace, e.g. the angel Shemyaza in the Book of Enoch.

Whether that then means that one should equate all these beings I'll leave to the theists.

Bottom line is that the word lucifer has been used extensively as an adjective giving meaning to someone/thing that has fallen from grace. The word lucifer becomes synonymous with the epic tales of the morning star.

Lucifer proper within Luciferianism and Roman / Greek religion was a proud noun.

 

[crossfire]

The ''fall'' of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 could be likely the same Lucifer that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” He is also depicted in Ezekiel 28.

According to Ezekiel 28:13, a probable reference to Lucifer, we learn that he is an amazing being to behold: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created."

There are also the interpretations that what is being described is a human king, etc. But, this isn't the only interpretation, Bible ''scholars'' often offer both stories.

I find Ezekiel 28 interesting in the parallel between Ezekiel 28:2 and 2 Peter 1:19 in that the Morning Star rises in your heart. (and both are connected to prophesy.) Both verses address individuals, not collectives.

Ezekiel 28:2

Your heart is proud,
and you have said, ‘I am a god;
I sit in the seat of gods
in the heart of the sea.’
Yet you are a man and not a god,
though you have regarded your heart
as that of a god.​

2 Peter 1:19 (The Latin translation uses the work "lucifer.")

So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.​

This is in connection with human beings, and human beings must die: they are cast down into the grave pit.

Now, Satan falling from heaven like lightening in Matthew 10 is different in my view: it is addressing collectives "towns," rather than individuals. Satan falling from heaven like lightening is like a collective hatred spreading amongst the individuals. Interestingly, these "demons" can be overcome and subdued by reminding them that each individuals is destined to die. This reminds me of Dhammapada 1:1-6.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Deidre]

It could be, yes. I think the reason why evil could be personified so to speak in Christian teachings, is the idea that God wouldn't have ''created'' evil, so the fallen angel story has a place. This is my understanding, and having been raised in the Catholic church, and then eventually leaving that and adhering to a non-denominational type of Christianity up until five years ago, the fallen angel Lucifer is a common story...some thinking it's metaphorical, others thinking it's literal.

 

[Liu]

I find Ezekiel 28 interesting in the parallel between Ezekiel 28:2 and 2 Peter 1:19 in that the Morning Star rises in your heart. (and both are connected to prophesy.) Both verses address individuals, not collectives.

Nice observation. But it's "cordibus vestris" in Peter, so it does address a collective.

 

[crossfire]

Nice observation. But it's "cordibus vestris" in Peter, so it does address a collective.

Yes! That is also true. I would say that the "Day Star rising in the heart" refers to individual understanding, as it was proceeded by "the day dawns."

 

[Liu]

Yes! That is also true. I would say that the "Day Star rising in the heart" refers to individual understanding, as it was proceeded by "the day dawns."

That doesn't seem convincing to me. "hearts/cordibus" is plural, and "vestris" is plural, so how could it refer to only one person? I've never heard of "vestris" having been used in a singular meaning, and a person normally only has one heart, even metaphorically. Same in the Greek version: "ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν" (2 Peter 1:19 Interlinear: And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise -- in your hearts;)

(btw, any way to post a link as simply the link and not have it converted to the website name?)

 

[crossfire]

That doesn't seem convincing to me. "hearts/cordibus" is plural, and "vestris" is plural, so how could it refer to only one person? I've never heard of "vestris" having been used in a singular meaning, and a person normally only has one heart, even metaphorically. Same in the Greek version: "ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν" (2 Peter 1:19 Interlinear: And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise -- in your hearts;)

Individual understanding. Not having your mind overcome by the collective, imo.

(btw, any way to post a link as simply the link and not have it converted to the website name?)

I think the forum automatically links to its own bible database if you post a scripture?

 

[Liu]

Individual understanding. Not having your mind overcome by the collective, imo.

But how would that work grammatically?

I think the forum automatically links to its own bible database if you post a scripture?

I didn't post a scripture but a link to a page on biblehub:
http:// biblehub.com/ interlinear/2_peter/1-19.htm
which the forum then replaces to
2 Peter 1:19 Interlinear: And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise -- in your hearts;
(well, it still leads to the correct page, but it seems much less helpful to have this preview than to see the actual link.)

 

[crossfire]

But how would that work grammatically?

Of course they are talking to many people, but each person has their own individual heart and mind (therefore many hearts, as opposed to a collective which might be expressed as one heart like in Ezekiel 11:19 and Jeremiah 32:39)

I didn't post a scripture but a link to a page on biblehub:
http:// biblehub.com/ interlinear/2_peter/1-19.htm
which the forum then replaces to
2 Peter 1:19 Interlinear: And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise -- in your hearts;
(well, it still leads to the correct page, but it seems much less helpful to have this preview than to see the actual link.)

I don't know. Maybe start a thread about it in site feedback?

 

[Liu]

Of course they are talking to many people, but each person has their own individual heart and mind (therefore many hearts, as opposed to a collective which might be expressed as one heart like in Ezekiel 11:19 and Jeremiah 32:39)

Okay, got you now. In that case, it is a matter of interpretation but it could be intentended to have such a meaning.

I don't know. Maybe start a thread about it in site feedback?

Probably it's intentional anyway.