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Matter and Consciousness

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
There is no "just being aware". To be aware requires our being aware of our being aware. It requires "other" awareness, too, for it so perceive it's "self".


no it doesn't.

plenty in the animal kingdom don't have self-awareness.. a perceptive thing can react to outward/inward experiences and not even observe they are having a thought. besides you can't have two thoughts at once. being aware that you are having a thought takes the observation off of the original thought and now the thought is about the thought from before. now the mind is examining the thought. the mind is just moving from one thought to another. that is awareness

thought, thought, thought, thought.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Consciousness is not simply reacting to the environment, as single-celled animals like amoebae can do. It requires something more -- it requires parts of the nervous system to be aware of what is occurring in other parts of the nervous system. \

Consider, for example, the earthworm. If you touch the earthworm, even just slightly, it will withdraw quickly, a reflex reaction. But as that same earthworm burrows forward through the earth, it is constantly being "touched" by the earth in encounters in front of it. Why does it not withdraw, then (rendering it, of course, incapable of movement)? The answer is that parts of the worms very small nervous system inform those other parts -- the ones responsible for withdrawing -- that the present touch is due to the organism's own actions, and that no danger is anticipated.

That, it would seem to me, is where consciousness begins. One can easily build up from there in higher animals, to the point that you will be able to understand why another person can tickle you, but you cannot tickle yourself.
amoebas don't just react. they have been shown to have the capacity for memory.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
amoebas don't just react. they have been shown to have the capacity for memory.
But that is NOT consciousness. Elastic bands have "memory," too -- they return to their original condition after having been stretched. The amoeba studies also note that the "memory" is very specific, very limited and lasts from 20-90 minutes, with an average of just 44 minutes. No theory has been proposed for what causes the "conditioned-response-like" behaviour, meaning it could well be nothing more than an analogue to the elastic band.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
But that is NOT consciousness. Elastic bands have "memory," too -- they return to their original condition after having been stretched. The amoeba studies also note that the "memory" is very specific, very limited and lasts from 20-90 minutes, with an average of just 44 minutes. No theory has been proposed for what causes the "conditioned-response-like" behaviour, meaning it could well be nothing more than an analogue to the elastic band.
memory is still memory; whether limited or specific.

it explained to you that memories are not usually retained if they have no long term expectation. you too have short-term memories.

again and again, it doesn't require a brain
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I don't see consciousness as a thing, but rather as a process. It is what happens when a certain level and type of information processing occurs. The details are uncertain, but it seems to be related to keeping an internal representation of the world and the place of the organism within it.

I'm guessing that 'consciousness' is a spectrum of abilities and not a single line of demarcation.
i'm starting to realize that the overall issue, process seems to be an association to an exact form, whether it's a spiritualist or a materialist. most things are more like a process.

so in this case and with most materialists it seems the form "brain" has to be a requirement for the process of consciousness to exist
 
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Kfox

Well-Known Member
some folks believe that matter creates consciousness.


so at what point does matter create consciousness? how does something go from being no conscious matter to conscious matter?


how do you create something from nothing?
How does a non conscious sperm and a non conscious egg (both matter) form together to become the most intelligent being in the known Universe? And it happens everyday.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's impossible. Dualism is also impossible. We are in a simulation, because material type existence has been and will always be impossible.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
memory is still memory; whether limited or specific.

it explained to you that memories are not usually retained if they have no long term expectation. you too have short-term memories.

again and again, it doesn't require a brain
You are using terms that should require some precision far too loosely.

And actually, I don't "have (in the sense of retain) short-term memories" for more than moments. I either convert them to long-term memory, or they are lost very quickly.

And the kind of memory I am referencing in the previous paragraph is very different from the "memory" I referred to in the elastic band.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member

Being able to chemically signal (even electrochemically) does not imply intelligence.

Of course multicellular living things are able to signal between cells. But the ability of your brain to control the construction of arteries does not imply that this is consciously done or even a result of intelligence. Many things that the brain controls are done completely unconsciously.

Do you have any evidence the signalling in plants is actually conscious or intelligently done?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
some folks believe that matter creates consciousness.


so at what point does matter create consciousness? how does something go from being no conscious matter to conscious matter?


how do you create something from nothing?
some folks believe that matter creates consciousness.
All of the evidence we have suggests that a physical brain is required for consciousness. Can you cite an example of consciousness existing without a physical brain?

so at what point does matter create consciousness? how does something go from being no conscious matter to conscious matter?
That's something neuroscience has been attempting to answer for some time now. Currently we do not know.

how do you create something from nothing?
I'm not sure you can, why do you ask? I'm not aware of anyone who claims that consciousness comes from nothing. It's the byproduct of a functioning physical brain.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How does a non conscious sperm and a non conscious egg (both matter) form together to become the most intelligent being in the known Universe? And it happens everyday.
Reactive again. The difference of pH forces them to move deeper in vagina.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
some folks believe that matter creates consciousness.

so at what point does matter create consciousness? how does something go from being no conscious matter to conscious matter?

how do you create something from nothing?
Now with ordinary materials and ordinary electricity you can make a lightning conductor, or an electric motor, or a radio ─ and so on.

Here your starting ingredients are biochemistry and bioelectricity.

As you know from your studies of the modern theory of evolution, once you have a self-reproducing cell, variations can occur in the reproducing process so that the offspring is not identical to the original.

Then by slow degrees of evolution you see develop in this fashion, by the operations of circumstance and chance, multicelled critters. Then critters with bilateral symmetry ie the left side is the mirror image of the right side, pretty much. Then you have input through the mouth and output through the gut. Then you have a major nerve system down the middle of the body, with the development of a nerve center at one end. Then the major nerve gets to be protected by bone and becomes a spine. Then you find critters with a movable jaw. And four legs.

Some of these come to live in tidal areas, and finally on dry land. They can do this because their eggs can retain water. They get good at breathing air. They grow scales. They start feeding their young on milk, apparently from adapted sweat glands.

They stop laying eggs and starting bearing live young.

And somewhere along the way, as they become more complex, the nerve center at the top of the spine has developed into a brain. And at some further point the brain has developed specialized regions. And these regions have developed better ways of intercommunicating. And somewhere in that process the feedback of self-awareness has developed.

And if you're a human you have a word for it, and in English that word is consciousness.

Okay?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Consciousness may be an emergent (epi)phenomenon of brain matter of a certain complexity and organization. Consider water molecules. They are not wet or white, but if you collect enough of them and arrange them properly, they may be either (liquid water, snow). How do water molecules create wetness? How does H20 go from not being wet when a single molecule to being wet as a collection of molecules?
Natural exists first.

It doesn't need a human destroyer your answer.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Now with ordinary materials and ordinary electricity you can make a lightning conductor, or an electric motor, or a radio ─ and so on.

Here your starting ingredients are biochemistry and bioelectricity.

As you know from your studies of the modern theory of evolution, once you have a self-reproducing cell, variations can occur in the reproducing process so that the offspring is not identical to the original.

Then by slow degrees of evolution you see develop in this fashion, by the operations of circumstance and chance, multicelled critters. Then critters with bilateral symmetry ie the left side is the mirror image of the right side, pretty much. Then you have input through the mouth and output through the gut. Then you have a major nerve system down the middle of the body, with the development of a nerve center at one end. Then the major nerve gets to be protected by bone and becomes a spine. Then you find critters with a movable jaw. And four legs.

Some of these come to live in tidal areas, and finally on dry land. They can do this because their eggs can retain water. They get good at breathing air. They grow scales. They start feeding their young on milk, apparently from adapted sweat glands.

They stop laying eggs and starting bearing live young.

And somewhere along the way, as they become more complex, the nerve center at the top of the spine has developed into a brain. And at some further point the brain has developed specialized regions. And these regions have developed better ways of intercommunicating. And somewhere in that process the feedback of self-awareness has developed.

And if you're a human you have a word for it, and in English that word is consciousness.

Okay?
The starting position.

A lying human man self life owner with every single natural body existing. In its exact natural law position exact.

And you thinking how by invention and your thoughts why you can change anything.

Intent.

As without machine and civilisation. You'd be with family and natural food gathering surviving on a planet that's unstable bodily.

Fact. Science says it identifies fact first. Fact begins with human only self presence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science says it identifies fact first. Fact begins with human only self presence.
Yes, a fact is an accurate statement about a real state of affairs ─ real in the sense of having objective existence, that is, of existing in the world external to the self.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
no it doesn't.

plenty in the animal kingdom don't have self-awareness.. a perceptive thing can react to outward/inward experiences and not even observe they are having a thought. besides you can't have two thoughts at once. being aware that you are having a thought takes the observation off of the original thought and now the thought is about the thought from before. now the mind is examining the thought. the mind is just moving from one thought to another. that is awareness

thought, thought, thought, thought.
"Thought" requires choice and choice requires options. That means we can and do hold more than one information set in our minds at a time. Choice is what separates 'awareness' apart from an automatic response.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
some folks believe that matter creates consciousness.


so at what point does matter create consciousness? how does something go from being no conscious matter to conscious matter?


how do you create something from nothing?

Human consciousness is connected to the human brain having two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. Animals have only a single center of consciousness; inner self. The inner self is older and is the center of the DNA based firmware of the brain we call natural instinct. The ego is much newer and evolved as a secondary center, about the time civilization starts to appear. An analogy would be like a super computer that spawns its own secondary terminal for outside input.

The secondary center or the ego within humans, allows us to become self aware. This is easier to see when dealing with a neurosis. For example, in a neurosis the patient may wish to overcome a phobia such as the fear of flying. No matter how hard they try, they will freeze and have to leave the plane. The patient is first taught to become aware of this inner inhibition, that seems to reinforce a behavior, that is currently beyond their will and desire. It is through seeing this secondary dynamics in yourself, in the objectivity of the second or third person, that self awareness begins to form. I think therefore I am is about self observation in the third person. This life skill allows us to notice consciousness in other creatures; third person. Will versus determinism is dividing line between the ego and inner self; choice versus compulsion.

Before the ego, there was only the inner self. There was no need for self awareness, since one existed only in the first person, living life through your own eyes and natural instinct; paradise without a care. There was no will and choice to separate us from our inner self instincts. One could not see oneself in the second or third person to have a choice. Once the ego secondary appears, there were now two possible paths for the phenomena of consciousness; will versus instinct. Almost all religions deal with ways to allow the ego and inner self to be on the same natural page. Religion is about the IT of the brain and consciousness.

How consciousness, in general, comes about from matter is connected to how neurons are designed. Neurons expend nearly 90% of their metabolic energy pumping and exchanging ions. The goal of all this energy and work output is to push the neuron's membrane up a free energy hill, to the top, and then over. The pumping and exchanging of ions segregates and concentrates different ions on each side of the membrane. The ions go from spontaneous randomness; solution, into segregated order, by means of energy and enzymes.

The second law of thermodynamics; entropy, states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. This is the spontaneous path that increase complexity. Left to their own devices; spontaneous path, all the ions would like to blend. However, the neuron is using a lot of energy to segregate the ions thereby lowering the natural complexity.

The neuron expends a lot of energy trying to reverse the second law, at its membrane, through the ions. This is possible but requires a lot of energy. When the free energy reaches the top of the neuron energy hill; the point of lowest ionic entropy and complexity, the ions begin to slide down the energy hill, on the other side; neuron fires. At the tipping point, at the top of the hill, the 2nd law takes over again, and increases the entropy of the ions, trying to blend the ions into a state of maximum complexity. The impact of the 2nd law, occurs within a highly wired network of neuron branches and synapses; cerebral matter and the core of the brain, which not only triggers our memory, but also pushes that memory to increase its complexity, via the second law; evolving awareness. We call that consciousness.

What makes life unique is it uses energy; metabolic energy, to lower complexity such as the polymerization of amino acids into protein, which are then packed in very specific ways. We go from complex solutions of amino acids; maximum entropy, and end up with a consistent fixed protein structure. This has an entropic potential built into it, that allows for the 2nd law to act; enzymatic actions. This building of active 2nd law structures has scaled too neurons, which takes the 2nd law into a new area that we call consciousness.

One good visual analogy for entropy and consciousness is a water fountain. All the billons of neuron, are like the parts of a larger pump that pumps the water of the fountain upward against gravity. Once the potential changes; water reaches the top of the fountain and starts to fall, nature take over via gravity; 2nd law analogy. As the water falls to the earth, it cascades down the fountain to lower and lower level collection areas, spilling over and falling even further, until it reaches the bottom pool. Once there, it is pumped back to the top, over and over. Like a fountain it always seems to be same, yet the drops are never exactly the same. This gives us a consistency of being, but with an evolving perspective. You with your evolving wisdom and experience. The ego appeared when a new collection pool formed in the fountain cascade. The inner self had extra potential; water, to use and formed a secondary hub. Will and choice uses up the potential.
 
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