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Featured Matter and Consciousness

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 4, 2022 at 8:34 AM.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    some folks believe that matter creates consciousness.


    so at what point does matter create consciousness? how does something go from being no conscious matter to conscious matter?


    how do you create something from nothing?
     
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  2. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    This may not have necessarily been the direction this thread was aiming (I can't tell), but my answer is that the first intelligent consciousness, something miraculous probably happened to cause it or to shift things that way, like God or gods.
     
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  3. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    I was told the eternal had always existed and still does. It owns a hole in its body known as creation.

    It still exists experiencing change.

    The language spirit that came out of the background changed. It was Held. Observed. Burst. Burnt. Why a communications system functions in space.

    It was always conscious as everything is by its own movement as its owned identity.

    So there isn't a beginning. And you can't define consciousness as it's all separate.
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    It is not creating something from nothing. Get used to get the preliminary information from Wikipedia.

    "For vertebrates, the early stages of neural development are similar across all species. As the embryo transforms from a round blob of cells into a wormlike structure, a narrow strip of ectoderm running along the midline of the back is induced to become the neural plate, the precursor of the nervous system. The neural plate folds inward to form the neural groove, and then the lips that line the groove merge to enclose the neural tube, a hollow cord of cells with a fluid-filled ventricle at the center. At the front end, the ventricles and cord swell to form three vesicles that are the precursors of the prosencephalon (forebrain), mesencephalon (midbrain), and rhombencephalon (hindbrain)."
    Brain - Wikipedia

    Brain of a human embryo in the sixth week of development.
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I suspect it's a matter of complexity. As the interaction of material physics become more and more complex, they also become more and more enabling of new possible results. Eventually those possible results reach the threshold of the metaphysical, I.e., conscious awareness.
     
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  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    amoeba's don't have brains but they are conscious
     
  7. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    That's pretty debatable. The fact that a cell will contract in response to some external stimuli hardly warrants it being labeled as 'conscious'. On the other hand, it is an example of how consciousness can eventually result from such dynamic complexity.
     
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  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    consciousness is nothing but awareness. either internal or external. amoeba manipulate their environments. consciousness can be scalar
     
  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think consciousness demands a higher bar then that. My desk fan "responds" to the flip of a switch. But that doesn't mean it's "aware" of anything.
     
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  10. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Consciousness may be an emergent (epi)phenomenon of brain matter of a certain complexity and organization. Consider water molecules. They are not wet or white, but if you collect enough of them and arrange them properly, they may be either (liquid water, snow). How do water molecules create wetness? How does H20 go from not being wet when a single molecule to being wet as a collection of molecules?
     
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  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Really? how is that so?

    I don't see amoeba as being conscious. They are alive, but they don't have thoughts or plans or anything usually associated with consciousness.
     
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  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I don't see consciousness as a thing, but rather as a process. It is what happens when a certain level and type of information processing occurs. The details are uncertain, but it seems to be related to keeping an internal representation of the world and the place of the organism within it.

    I'm guessing that 'consciousness' is a spectrum of abilities and not a single line of demarcation.
     
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  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    @Polymath explained it in some post today. They are reactive but not conscious. Trees also are reactive.
     
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  14. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I would agree. Consciousness is much more than responsiveness. A thermostat is responsive. But it is not conscious (although I have seen it argued otherwise). Computers, at least at this stage of our technology, are not conscious.
     
  15. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    It would be hard to define exactly what constitutes consciousness, but I think it must have something to do with being aware of awareness. For a brain to "think", it has to be able to perceive of alternatives. To produce an hold onto two information sets, to compare and contrast. Auto-response requires just one information set so not thought or awareness is manifesting. "Thought" requires an alternative through which to perceive the awareness of choice, values, etc.,. And it's that awareness that defines consciousness.
     
  16. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Consciousness is not simply reacting to the environment, as single-celled animals like amoebae can do. It requires something more -- it requires parts of the nervous system to be aware of what is occurring in other parts of the nervous system. \

    Consider, for example, the earthworm. If you touch the earthworm, even just slightly, it will withdraw quickly, a reflex reaction. But as that same earthworm burrows forward through the earth, it is constantly being "touched" by the earth in encounters in front of it. Why does it not withdraw, then (rendering it, of course, incapable of movement)? The answer is that parts of the worms very small nervous system inform those other parts -- the ones responsible for withdrawing -- that the present touch is due to the organism's own actions, and that no danger is anticipated.

    That, it would seem to me, is where consciousness begins. One can easily build up from there in higher animals, to the point that you will be able to understand why another person can tickle you, but you cannot tickle yourself.
     
  17. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    No. Matter IS consciousness.
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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  19. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    you're speaking to self-awareness. that is just another form of being aware
     
  20. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    There is no "just being aware". To be aware requires our being aware of our being aware. It requires "other" awareness, too, for it so perceive it's "self".
     
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