Materialism has officially become dangerous in my eyes.

[1137]

Materialism has officially become dangerous in my eyes. Not in any way to the extent of Islamic extremism, fascism, or other rising positions in the world, but dangerous nonetheless. Why?

1. The death of skepticism: even the slightest skeptical questioning casts doubt on materialism, for how can we reduce the mind to matter when we know the mind directly and matter through it? Can we trust our senses that there's a physical world out there? Is there really no other valid possibility in the world? Skepticism is about doubt whereas materialism is a position of certainty. There's very little questioning of it and that questioning is dogmatically brushed off rather than addressed. With the increasing popularity of materialism this is very dangerous.

2. Neglect of the mind and its role in health and happiness is dangerous. Even just the simple way we perceive our situation has an effect on us, such as whether we believe we are happy or not. To have any hope of treating the mentally ill we need to address both mind and brain, not simply the latter. We have to address subjective symptoms, not simply what physical ailments are immediately noticable.

3. The rejection of all immaterial things completely destroys concepts such as math and logic. In materialism these things must be mind dependent, where they exist as concepts, at least according to materialism. But the idea that things like math and logic, which lead us to objective truth and intelligent thought, are mind dependent is extremely dangerous. It basically allows for whatever one wants to be true to be treated as true, because logical and mathematical truths are more or less subjective and fabricated. Any group that teaches things like logic to be relative posses a threat to knowledge and growth. An ignorant community is one ripe for the plucking!

4. Life-Fields are another thing rejected by materialists. Despite being confirmed by thousands of experiments, and leading to massive break throughs in medicine like predicting ovulation, materialists reject the idea of L-Fields, and in fact likely never have heard of them due to them being ignored in mainstream science specifically for not fitting with materialism (see #1). Life-Fields can help us predict things like ovulation, cancer, birth defects in a developing egg, highs and lows of mental stability, even things like when would be the best time for someone to learn something. The benefits to human life could be so numerous, but alas since L-Fields bring questions like Teleology and design to the table, they are simply ignored by materialists who care neither for scientific truth nor human life.

5. Materialism greatly implies a belief in hard predeterminism, as there is nothing to stand against the every flowing onslaught of nature. If this this the case there's simply no hope in ever changing or improving upon any situation. Why would we go to a doctor or see a counselor if nothing we do can actually change anything? Of course some realize, almost self evidently for many of us, that we can indeed go against the flow of material nature. We can manipulate it such as to make medications in this example, or use the strength of our mind to recondition the way we act and think. These being only two small examples!

Now sure, materialists are not going around killing people, I'd never pretend they're as bad as extremist groups like ISIL. But materialism is dangerous in a much longer run, it's taking over culture far more quickly than ISIL could ever hope to, and it's ingrained in us for most of our lives, stuck as part of our education systems, dominating the way we view and treat human life. There may not be genocide, but it's still dangerous nonetheless. It's led to a death of doubt and questioning, led to a rejection of the power and independent existence of the mind, it is forced to push a view of logic and mathematics (which sciences like physics rely on) as mind dependent and therefore not objective or real, it ignores hard science that can benefit humanity simply so that it's authority as leading philosophy cannot be questioned, and it leads to a point of nihilism where we may as well wallow in our problems because nothing can stand up to the flow of the material world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

2. Neglect of the mind and its role in health and happiness is dangerous. Even just the simple way we perceive our situation has an effect on us, such as whether we believe we are happy or not. To have any hope of treating the mentally ill we need to address both mind and brain, not simply the latter. We have to address subjective symptoms, not simply what physical ailments are immediately noticable.

This is especially worth repeating, IMO. Talk therapy alone can work for many, many people. However, I see more of a multi-leveled problem. We can bring in science to suggest we probably are over medicating people with things like anti-depressives, but this is a conflict involving profit motive moreso than materialism. Where the issues with materialism present--and are brought forward especially by anthropology--are that we know the mind can be fragile, we know things that do not "concretely" exist can effect it, and that overall wellbeing and health is not just the results of medical testing but rather requires that one feels well and healthy. Without that, the doors are open for anxiety and depression, becoming possessed by fox spirits, running amok, and possibly even truly believing you are dead.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

This is assuming a lot about my beliefs that I simply do not share.

I.e. in no way does my materialistic view weaken the importance of mental health, and exercising of the mind in productive ways. I just don't agree that things like mental health or mind exist without physical structure of the brain.

Nor do I believe math and logic are defunct, I just don't see them as actively independent existing entities. Just like language.

I'm unconvinced by the supposed evidence of life fields for the same reasons brought up in the other thread, for similar reasons as I'm unconvinced by paranormal claims to be supported by science. The claimed predictions don't match the data.

I'm not a hard determinist nor do I believe having goals or treating oneself is pointless and frankly find the inference just as insulting as when Christians say life is meaningless without God.
Even if I were a determinist, that wouldn't exclude the possibility that treatment by a doctor would give me a higher quality of living. And since I don't believe using technology arrived by our naturally evolved brains is 'against nature,' And because I don't believe 'strengthening the mind' is independent from 'strengthening the brain,' then there's no reason I'd be categorically against these things either.

 

[Quintessence]

I think you are grossly overstating and oversimplifying the impact substance materialism has on a person's actual behavior. I see little reason to believe that embracing substance materialism makes one reject skepticism and critical thinking, that it means neglecting mental health issues, or that it means rejecting things being labeled "immaterial." I wager most people on the planet regardless of philosophical ontology have no clue what this "life fields" stuff even is and therefore neither reject nor accept it. I also see little reason to believe a mischaracterization of hard determinists, or that such philosophy necessarily follows from substance materialism.

Truly, I'm not sure what you mean by "materialism" anymore, because it sure bears scant resemblance to my understanding of that term. It's like you are out to demonize some weird chimera strawperson of what that means. I don't get it.

 

[Polymath257]

Materialism has officially become dangerous in my eyes. Not in any way to the extent of Islamic extremism, fascism, or other rising positions in the world, but dangerous nonetheless. Why?

1. The death of skepticism: even the slightest skeptical questioning casts doubt on materialism, for how can we reduce the mind to matter when we know the mind directly and matter through it? Can we trust our senses that there's a physical world out there? Is there really no other valid possibility in the world? Skepticism is about doubt whereas materialism is a position of certainty. There's very little questioning of it and that questioning is dogmatically brushed off rather than addressed. With the increasing popularity of materialism this is very dangerous.

On the contrary, it is *precisely* because of skepticism that we request proof of anything non-material. Yes, we have minds, but all evidence points to them being the product of our brains.

2. Neglect of the mind and its role in health and happiness is dangerous. Even just the simple way we perceive our situation has an effect on us, such as whether we believe we are happy or not. To have any hope of treating the mentally ill we need to address both mind and brain, not simply the latter. We have to address subjective symptoms, not simply what physical ailments are immediately noticable.

And a materialist can equally well appreciate that mental health impacts physical health. The brain is an important physical aspect of our bodies and so the connection need not be anything non-physical

3. The rejection of all immaterial things completely destroys concepts such as math and logic. In materialism these things must be mind dependent, where they exist as concepts, at least according to materialism. But the idea that things like math and logic, which lead us to objective truth and intelligent thought, are mind dependent is extremely dangerous. It basically allows for whatever one wants to be true to be treated as true, because logical and mathematical truths are more or less subjective and fabricated. Any group that teaches things like logic to be relative posses a threat to knowledge and growth. An ignorant community is one ripe for the plucking!

The problems here are multiple:
1. There are many different formulations of mathematics and many different possible logics. The standard 2-valued logic is by-far the most used, but there is nothing essential in it. As for math, we have learned over the last couple of centuries that the possibilities are much more than anyone thought before that.

2. Mathematics, as used by non-mathematicians, is primarily a language to help us describe things. There is nothing external to our minds in it. It is, however, very useful for certain types of investigations. But it is also crucial to note that any particular mathematical truth need not related to anything in the real world.

4. Life-Fields are another thing rejected by materialists. Despite being confirmed by thousands of experiments, and leading to massive break throughs in medicine like predicting ovulation, materialists reject the idea of L-Fields, and in fact likely never have heard of them due to them being ignored in mainstream science specifically for not fitting with materialism (see #1). Life-Fields can help us predict things like ovulation, cancer, birth defects in a developing egg, highs and lows of mental stability, even things like when would be the best time for someone to learn something. The benefits to human life could be so numerous, but alas since L-Fields bring questions like Teleology and design to the table, they are simply ignored by materialists who care neither for scientific truth nor human life.

Your delusions about this have been pointed out in another thread. The denial of L-fields is due to science, not the denial of such.

5. Materialism greatly implies a belief in hard predeterminism, as there is nothing to stand against the every flowing onslaught of nature. If this this the case there's simply no hope in ever changing or improving upon any situation. Why would we go to a doctor or see a counselor if nothing we do can actually change anything? Of course some realize, almost self evidently for many of us, that we can indeed go against the flow of material nature. We can manipulate it such as to make medications in this example, or use the strength of our mind to recondition the way we act and think. These being only two small examples!

Materialism implies no such thing. In fact, we *know* the physical world is non-deterministic. How consciousness and choice enter into this is still to be determined, though.

Now sure, materialists are not going around killing people, I'd never pretend they're as bad as extremist groups like ISIL. But materialism is dangerous in a much longer run, it's taking over culture far more quickly than ISIL could ever hope to, and it's ingrained in us for most of our lives, stuck as part of our education systems, dominating the way we view and treat human life. There may not be genocide, but it's still dangerous nonetheless. It's led to a death of doubt and questioning, led to a rejection of the power and independent existence of the mind, it is forced to push a view of logic and mathematics (which sciences like physics rely on) as mind dependent and therefore not objective or real, it ignores hard science that can benefit humanity simply so that it's authority as leading philosophy cannot be questioned, and it leads to a point of nihilism where we may as well wallow in our problems because nothing can stand up to the flow of the material world.

It seems to me that a much bigger threat are those who believe in superstitious crap and are willing to kill others because of this. But superstition encourages exactly this type of non-skeptical thinking. Because faith cannot be tested, it is dangerous when that faith is taken to mean those who do not believe are dangerous.

 

[icehorse]

Agreed with the above, @1137 can you tell us your definition of materialism, or point to a link you agree with?

 

[Quintessence]

You know, on the other hand, do keep up with presenting and beating down mischaracterizations of substance materialism. Then I can point to it as an example of what I have to put up with far too often when certain people open their mouths about theism and religion. The level of misrepresentation of substance materialists in the OP is pretty on par with the level of misrepresentation I see on a routine basis concerning theists and religion. Turnabout is fair play, as they say.

 

[Nous]

Materialism has officially become dangerous in my eyes. Not in any way to the extent of Islamic extremism, fascism, or other rising positions in the world, but dangerous nonetheless. Why?

1. The death of skepticism: even the slightest skeptical questioning casts doubt on materialism, for how can we reduce the mind to matter when we know the mind directly and matter through it? Can we trust our senses that there's a physical world out there? Is there really no other valid possibility in the world? Skepticism is about doubt whereas materialism is a position of certainty. There's very little questioning of it and that questioning is dogmatically brushed off rather than addressed. With the increasing popularity of materialism this is very dangerous.

2. Neglect of the mind and its role in health and happiness is dangerous. Even just the simple way we perceive our situation has an effect on us, such as whether we believe we are happy or not. To have any hope of treating the mentally ill we need to address both mind and brain, not simply the latter. We have to address subjective symptoms, not simply what physical ailments are immediately noticable.

3. The rejection of all immaterial things completely destroys concepts such as math and logic. In materialism these things must be mind dependent, where they exist as concepts, at least according to materialism. But the idea that things like math and logic, which lead us to objective truth and intelligent thought, are mind dependent is extremely dangerous. It basically allows for whatever one wants to be true to be treated as true, because logical and mathematical truths are more or less subjective and fabricated. Any group that teaches things like logic to be relative posses a threat to knowledge and growth. An ignorant community is one ripe for the plucking!

4. Life-Fields are another thing rejected by materialists. Despite being confirmed by thousands of experiments, and leading to massive break throughs in medicine like predicting ovulation, materialists reject the idea of L-Fields, and in fact likely never have heard of them due to them being ignored in mainstream science specifically for not fitting with materialism (see #1). Life-Fields can help us predict things like ovulation, cancer, birth defects in a developing egg, highs and lows of mental stability, even things like when would be the best time for someone to learn something. The benefits to human life could be so numerous, but alas since L-Fields bring questions like Teleology and design to the table, they are simply ignored by materialists who care neither for scientific truth nor human life.

5. Materialism greatly implies a belief in hard predeterminism, as there is nothing to stand against the every flowing onslaught of nature. If this this the case there's simply no hope in ever changing or improving upon any situation. Why would we go to a doctor or see a counselor if nothing we do can actually change anything? Of course some realize, almost self evidently for many of us, that we can indeed go against the flow of material nature. We can manipulate it such as to make medications in this example, or use the strength of our mind to recondition the way we act and think. These being only two small examples!

Now sure, materialists are not going around killing people, I'd never pretend they're as bad as extremist groups like ISIL. But materialism is dangerous in a much longer run, it's taking over culture far more quickly than ISIL could ever hope to, and it's ingrained in us for most of our lives, stuck as part of our education systems, dominating the way we view and treat human life. There may not be genocide, but it's still dangerous nonetheless. It's led to a death of doubt and questioning, led to a rejection of the power and independent existence of the mind, it is forced to push a view of logic and mathematics (which sciences like physics rely on) as mind dependent and therefore not objective or real, it ignores hard science that can benefit humanity simply so that it's authority as leading philosophy cannot be questioned, and it leads to a point of nihilism where we may as well wallow in our problems because nothing can stand up to the flow of the material world.

While I more or less agree with several of your points here, I don't consider the thesis (or belief in the thesis) of materialism "dangerous," but, rather, either false or vacuous. We know without a doubt that what objectively exists is not limited to objects that have mass and volume ("matter").

Despite it's falsehood and/or vacuity, I'd say materialism is generally a harmless religion.

 

[Nous]

On the contrary, it is *precisely* because of skepticism that we request proof of anything non-material.

Energy exists, and energy is not an object that has mass and volume.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And a materialist can equally well appreciate that mental health impacts physical health. The brain is an important physical aspect of our bodies and so the connection need not be anything non-physical

The issue is that studying it as just a brain leaves some problems of it's own. And this is not making supernatural connections, but acknowledgment of the many factors (such as beliefs and moral edicts) that are not physical things effect someone's mind. Their brain and body may be functioning just fine, but they are still displaying symptoms of illness (and, remarkably, the symptoms we display in regards to our mental states are largely culturally determined). Medical anthropology especially highlights this, that approaching mental health as dealing with the brain is inadequate. Sometimes it will work, but often enough times there is no "physical aspect" to treat, nothing as showing up as being askew, but yet this person will still display many symptoms, possibly even die ever nothing more than believing they have broken a sacred rule.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Materialism has officially become dangerous in my eyes. Not in any way to the extent of Islamic extremism, fascism, or other rising positions in the world, but dangerous nonetheless. Why?

I can agree already

1. The death of skepticism: even the slightest skeptical questioning casts doubt on materialism, for how can we reduce the mind to matter when we know the mind directly and matter through it? Can we trust our senses that there's a physical world out there? Is there really no other valid possibility in the world? Skepticism is about doubt whereas materialism is a position of certainty. There's very little questioning of it and that questioning is dogmatically brushed off rather than addressed. With the increasing popularity of materialism this is very dangerous.

This seems like unnecessary solipsism and it also comes off as unjustified doubt. Anything can be doubted for an untold amount of reasons.

You can be a materialist and still hold doubt. It is a matter of labelling because even if you are a materialist you can still assert that what is spiritual is reducible to material existence. Mormons do this ALL the time in their scripture.

On top of this is the primary issue that we have no other proofs of the supernatural and can only have proofs of materialistic existence. You are holding doubt and being skeptical toward something that you have no skeptical position on. What is giving you doubt?

2. Neglect of the mind and its role in health and happiness is dangerous. Even just the simple way we perceive our situation has an effect on us, such as whether we believe we are happy or not. To have any hope of treating the mentally ill we need to address both mind and brain, not simply the latter. We have to address subjective symptoms, not simply what physical ailments are immediately noticable.

But we have no reason to assume the mind is nothing else but the result of a brain. If there truly is a brain that affects our mental condition which is demonstrable by merely taking a crowbar and stick it 7 inches into one's skull.

3. The rejection of all immaterial things completely destroys concepts such as math and logic. In materialism these things must be mind dependent, where they exist as concepts, at least according to materialism. But the idea that things like math and logic, which lead us to objective truth and intelligent thought, are mind dependent is extremely dangerous. It basically allows for whatever one wants to be true to be treated as true, because logical and mathematical truths are more or less subjective and fabricated. Any group that teaches things like logic to be relative posses a threat to knowledge and growth. An ignorant community is one ripe for the plucking!

Quite the contrary in materialism there are still external forces from one's own mind. You seem to be conflating solipsism with naturalism here. Materialism does not even profess that math and logic are mind dependant as this is only subjective to the type of materialist.

4. Life-Fields are another thing rejected by materialists. Despite being confirmed by thousands of experiments, and leading to massive break throughs in medicine like predicting ovulation, materialists reject the idea of L-Fields, and in fact likely never have heard of them due to them being ignored in mainstream science specifically for not fitting with materialism (see #1). Life-Fields can help us predict things like ovulation, cancer, birth defects in a developing egg, highs and lows of mental stability, even things like when would be the best time for someone to learn something. The benefits to human life could be so numerous, but alas since L-Fields bring questions like Teleology and design to the table, they are simply ignored by materialists who care neither for scientific truth nor human life.

Life-fields isn't even a provable concept as of yet and whose only breakthrough is to give spiritualist hope for their woo.

5. Materialism greatly implies a belief in hard predeterminism, as there is nothing to stand against the every flowing onslaught of nature. If this this the case there's simply no hope in ever changing or improving upon any situation. Why would we go to a doctor or see a counselor if nothing we do can actually change anything? Of course some realize, almost self evidently for many of us, that we can indeed go against the flow of material nature. We can manipulate it such as to make medications in this example, or use the strength of our mind to recondition the way we act and think. These being only two small examples!

I have none of few materialist who are determinist. I was a determinist and a materialist and I got ridiculed for it.

Now sure, materialists are not going around killing people, I'd never pretend they're as bad as extremist groups like ISIL. But materialism is dangerous in a much longer run, it's taking over culture far more quickly than ISIL could ever hope to, and it's ingrained in us for most of our lives, stuck as part of our education systems, dominating the way we view and treat human life. There may not be genocide, but it's still dangerous nonetheless. It's led to a death of doubt and questioning, led to a rejection of the power and independent existence of the mind, it is forced to push a view of logic and mathematics (which sciences like physics rely on) as mind dependent and therefore not objective or real, it ignores hard science that can benefit humanity simply so that it's authority as leading philosophy cannot be questioned, and it leads to a point of nihilism where we may as well wallow in our problems because nothing can stand up to the flow of the material world.

 

[Polymath257]

Energy exists, and energy is not an object that has mass and volume.

yes. And it is still part of the material reality.

 

[Nous]

yes. And it is still part of the material reality.

Define your terms and deduce your claim.

 

[Nous]

This is assuming a lot about my beliefs that I simply do not share.

I.e. in no way does my materialistic view weaken the importance of mental health, and exercising of the mind in productive ways.

[. . .]

I'm not a hard determinist nor do I believe having goals or treating oneself is pointless

Can you explain what you mean by "exercising of the mind in productive ways" and "having goals"? Those phrases sound to me like implying some sort of intentional or willful behavior. If so, can you explain how that happens in a world where nothing exists but objects that have mass and volume?

 

[Jumi]

You have made your mind up. Of course most of us who are or have been materialists will reject your definitions of materialism and the conclusions you make based on these definitions.

If you are so convinced of these life fields that exist outside of the natural world, why not have them proven in a scientific way? I'm certain that when proven, most will accept them. Many materialists have no problem accepting existence of yet unknown fields. You could say that the Soviets didn't represent materialism (and I feel like their materialism was full of beliefs that compare to theism), but they are known to have made theories about them and attempted to utilize them in various fields of study.

 

[Yerda]

Energy exists, and energy is not an object that has mass and volume.

I'm not going to defend materialism but if energy could defeat materialsm wouldn't it have died out with thermodynamics?

 

[Nous]

Of course most of us who are or have been materialists will reject your definitions of materialism

Are you good with this definition:

2.the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.​

the definition of materialism

?

 

[Nous]

I'm not going to defend materialism but if energy could defeat materialsm wouldn't it have died out with thermodynamics?

Yes. The thesis of materialism was refuted by the findings and theories of physics long ago.

 

[1137]

This is assuming a lot about my beliefs that I simply do not share.

I accept that you may not feel this way, but these are the logical conclusions of material monism.

I.e. in no way does my materialistic view weaken the importance of mental health, and exercising of the mind in productive ways. I just don't agree that things like mental health or mind exist without physical structure of the brain.

But if material monism (MM) is true, all we need to address is the material aspects of a person, for that is all that exists. Either the mind and brain are identical, or they are non-identical.

Nor do I believe math and logic are defunct, I just don't see them as actively independent existing entities. Just like language.

I'm glad! I'm starting to realize we seem to inherently understand dualism as human beings, even if not consciously. But if we follow MM to it's conclusion, then something like the laws of logic or mathematical ontology, which cannot be accessed in a material way, cannot exist.

I'm unconvinced by the supposed evidence of life fields for the same reasons brought up in the other thread, for similar reasons as I'm unconvinced by paranormal claims to be supported by science. The claimed predictions don't match the data.

We aren't talking about anything paranormal, we are talking about actual experiments carried out by numerous scientists.

I'm not a hard determinist nor do I believe having goals or treating oneself is pointless and frankly find the inference just as insulting as when Christians say life is meaningless without God.
Even if I were a determinist, that wouldn't exclude the possibility that treatment by a doctor would give me a higher quality of living. And since I don't believe using technology arrived by our naturally evolved brains is 'against nature,' And because I don't believe 'strengthening the mind' is independent from 'strengthening the brain,' then there's no reason I'd be categorically against these things either.

I'm agree with you on this, but it doesn't follow from MM. In fact, in a purely deterministic system, the only kind compatible with MM, medicine will not arise to the level it has because it everything flows ever forward on one direction. There is no questioning, willful manipulation, or fighting against nature in hard determinism. More importantly, things like cognitive therapy would have no hope of working.

I think you are grossly overstating and oversimplifying the impact substance materialism has on a person's actual behavior. I see little reason to believe that embracing substance materialism makes one reject skepticism and critical thinking, that it means neglecting mental health issues, or that it means rejecting things being labeled "immaterial." I wager most people on the planet regardless of philosophical ontology have no clue what this "life fields" stuff even is and therefore neither reject nor accept it. I also see little reason to believe a mischaracterization of hard determinists, or that such philosophy necessarily follows from substance materialism.

The issue is that these are the conclusions which logically follow from material monism.

Truly, I'm not sure what you mean by "materialism" anymore, because it sure bears scant resemblance to my understanding of that term. It's like you are out to demonize some weird chimera strawperson of what that means. I don't get it.

Materialism - Wikipedia

Materialism

Materialism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy

Eliminative Materialism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

On the contrary, it is *precisely* because of skepticism that we request proof of anything non-material. Yes, we have minds, but all evidence points to them being the product of our brain

You claim to require proof, yet when asked for it you can never present any. I find this supiscious at best. I recommend some further reading just cause I have to do this on my phone.

Skepticism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy

Philosophical skepticism - Wikipedia

And a materialist can equally well appreciate that mental health impacts physical health. The brain is an important physical aspect of our bodies and so the connection need not be anything non-physical

The issue at hand is that the two are very, very different. It's a counselor teaching self-regulation techniques vs. him simply dosing a patient with seratonin or dopamine. Simply caring for the brain is not enough, or we would expect medication to be much more effective against mental illness.

The problems here are multiple:
1. There are many different formulations of mathematics and many different possible logics. The standard 2-valued logic is by-far the most used, but there is nothing essential in it. As for math, we have learned over the last couple of centuries that the possibilities are much more than anyone thought before that.

2. Mathematics, as used by non-mathematicians, is primarily a language to help us describe things. There is nothing external to our minds in it. It is, however, very useful for certain types of investigations. But it is also crucial to note that any particular mathematical truth need not related to anything in the real world.

Let's say I have a pile of three apples. If nobody is around to count those apples, does the quantity of separate objects change somehow?

Your delusions about this have been pointed out in another thread. The denial of L-fields is due to science, not the denial of such.

Perhaps if they were not, you know, confirmed by numerous scientific studies, you might have a point.

Materialism implies no such thing. In fact, we *know* the physical world is non-deterministic. How consciousness and choice enter into this is still to be determined, though.

Do you reject cause and effect?

It seems to me that a much bigger threat are those who believe in superstitious crap and are willing to kill others because of this. But superstition encourages exactly this type of non-skeptical thinking. Because faith cannot be tested, it is dangerous when that faith is taken to mean those who do not believe are dangerous.

I agree, there are far greater dangers than materialism out there.

Agreed with the above, @1137 can you tell us your definition of materialism, or point to a link you agree with?

I posted some links above in this post

You know, on the other hand, do keep up with presenting and beating down mischaracterizations of substance materialism. Then I can point to it as an example of what I have to put up with far too often when certain people open their mouths about theism and religion. The level of misrepresentation of substance materialists in the OP is pretty on par with the level of misrepresentation I see on a routine basis concerning theists and religion. Turnabout is fair play, as they say.

I agree that we do not see many people practicing this, because as self-aware beings we seem to inherently, if unconsciously, recognize mind/body duality. We know it would be silly to ignore the mind in treatment of depression, for example, but yet so many promote a philosophy that logically concludes the treatment of this mind should be irrelevant. I would be very happy to have you pass on this thread, hopefully in a few generations we can back on track from materialistic dogma.

You have made your mind up. Of course most of us who are or have been materialists will reject your definitions of materialism and the conclusions you make based on these definitions.

You act as if I have some ownership on logical conclusions, but this is not the case.

If you are so convinced of these life fields that exist outside of the natural world, why not have them proven in a scientific way? I'm certain that when proven, most will accept them. Many materialists have no problem accepting existence of yet unknown fields. You could say that the Soviets didn't represent materialism (and I feel like their materialism was full of beliefs that compare to theism), but they are known to have made theories about them and attempted to utilize them in various fields of study.

Why do what's already been done, when it's already confirmed materialists will deny it no matter what?

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its op ponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” - Max Planck

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Can you explain what you mean by "exercising of the mind in productive ways" and "having goals"? Those phrases sound to me like implying some sort of intentional or willful behavior. If so, can you explain how that happens in a world where nothing exists but objects that have mass and volume?

A computer's hard drive and it's programs are both physical, even if software and hardware are distinct, if not entirely separate. The operations of a computer program is dependent on the hardware but is abstracted through data transcription. Talking about the 'health of a motherboard us not like talking about the 'health' of a program, but both of those things are physical. The former a physical object and the latter a physical process. Similarly, operations of mind are like computer programs executed by the hardware of the brain.

I'm not really interested in going down a month long rabbit hole of debate on this analogy, but that's how I view it.