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Mass seems to miss the point

sugnim

Member
I went to my first Catholic mass today. I was underwhelmed. There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point.

For me, Christianity is about how Jesus taught us to live. Miracles, bowing to altars, and being sure to say the prescribed words at the prescribed time seem so beside the point of all-inclusive love.

For example, the Apostles' Creed seemed focused on recitation of miracles and humility before a male God. But, it seems to me that Jesus didn't ask his apostles to do anything like that. Would it be more Christ-like to speak our own words affirming our commitment to caring for one another, most especially the least among us?

Was this all just to create & reinforce a sense of community & tradition rather than to reaffirm Jesus' teachings? Maybe it was a display of culture rather than a display of religion?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I went to my first Catholic mass today. I was underwhelmed. There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point.

For me, Christianity is about how Jesus taught us to live. Miracles, bowing to altars, and being sure to say the prescribed words at the prescribed time seem so beside the point of all-inclusive love.

For example, the Apostles' Creed seemed focused on recitation of miracles and humility before a male God. But, it seems to me that Jesus didn't ask his apostles to do anything like that. Would it be more Christ-like to speak our own words affirming our commitment to caring for one another, most especially the least among us?

Was this all just to create & reinforce a sense of community & tradition rather than to reaffirm Jesus' teachings? Maybe it was a display of culture rather than a display of religion?

I find Christianity, the structure of it, to be more about what Paul taught than what Jesus taught. Paul gave structure to the church, Jesus gave structure to the spirit. So the church belongs to Paul, the spirit belongs to... Well I'll let you figure that one out.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I went to my first Catholic mass today. I was underwhelmed. There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point.

For me, Christianity is about how Jesus taught us to live. Miracles, bowing to altars, and being sure to say the prescribed words at the prescribed time seem so beside the point of all-inclusive love.

For example, the Apostles' Creed seemed focused on recitation of miracles and humility before a male God. But, it seems to me that Jesus didn't ask his apostles to do anything like that. Would it be more Christ-like to speak our own words affirming our commitment to caring for one another, most especially the least among us?

Was this all just to create & reinforce a sense of community & tradition rather than to reaffirm Jesus' teachings? Maybe it was a display of culture rather than a display of religion?

It's worship.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I agree with that.

Do you reject the entirety of the old testament? Because my understanding is that a lot of Catholic ecclesiastical traditions stem from ancient Jewish ones.

The style of worship at a Catholic Mass represents the kind of ancient worship one might have expected to see in ancient Israel.

I do wonder what worshipping God would have looked like in the ancient temple, exactly.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Do you reject the entirety of the old testament? Because my understanding is that a lot of Catholic ecclesiastical traditions stem from ancient Jewish ones.

The style of worship at a Catholic Mass represents the kind of ancient worship one might have expected to see in ancient Israel.

I do wonder what worshipping God would have looked like in the ancient temple, exactly.
I don't understand the "reject the entirety...". I don't accept the Bible or any religion's scriptures as inerrant. There are parts in the Bible and specifically in the OT that are to me true.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I find Christianity, the structure of it, to be more about what Paul taught than what Jesus taught. Paul gave structure to the church, Jesus gave structure to the spirit. So the church belongs to Paul, the spirit belongs to... Well I'll let you figure that one out.
Catholics seem to think Jesus gave the church to Peter. So how did Paul get so much influence?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Catholics seem to think Jesus gave the church to Peter. So how did Paul get so much influence?

His letters. He was an early church leader that actually wrote down his thoughts.
About Peter, good question. I've read some feel Peter never actually made it to Rome. Why Peter instead of Paul? Maybe a closer connection to Jesus. While Peter was a disciple of Jesus, Paul never met the man.
 

sugnim

Member
I find Christianity, the structure of it, to be more about what Paul taught than what Jesus taught. Paul gave structure to the church, Jesus gave structure to the spirit. So the church belongs to Paul, the spirit belongs to... Well I'll let you figure that one out.

Good explanation. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. And unto Paul what is Paul's, I suppose.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I went to my first Catholic mass today. I was underwhelmed. There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point.

For me, Christianity is about how Jesus taught us to live. Miracles, bowing to altars, and being sure to say the prescribed words at the prescribed time seem so beside the point of all-inclusive love.

For example, the Apostles' Creed seemed focused on recitation of miracles and humility before a male God. But, it seems to me that Jesus didn't ask his apostles to do anything like that. Would it be more Christ-like to speak our own words affirming our commitment to caring for one another, most especially the least among us?

Was this all just to create & reinforce a sense of community & tradition rather than to reaffirm Jesus' teachings? Maybe it was a display of culture rather than a display of religion?
Okay, first, I'm not a Christian, so my opinion on this is worth less than two cents.

But it seems to me that the Catholic Mass is all about Jesus from the processional, where they carry a big ol' crucifix down the aisle, to the very end, when they priest says, Go in peace to love and serve the Lord (which is when real Catholic rubber meets the road, they tell me.)

Practically the entire mass is quoting their scripture, paraphrasing their scripture, or reading their scripture.

The central core belief of Chrisitanity, that Jesus died for your sins, is right dead smack center front in the form of the crucifix -- you can't miss it, and you usually end up staring at it even if you get bored and stop listening. So at least THAT isn't lost on you.

I think what you described was what can be called "culture shock." It's where you are used to expressing certain things and feelings one way, and then you go into a new culture and they express those things and feelings a different way, and you just feel a sense of strangeness, even wrongness. It just seems to get lost in the translation.

I am obviously not an advocate for Catholicism. I think they get lots and lots of things wrong. I'm glad none of my kids are Catholic. But not for any of the reasons you are giving.

If I were you, I wouldn't give up just yet. I would keep going, and get to know Catholics, and ASK them, "why do you do it this way? what does this mean to you?" For example, I'll bet that bowing to altars is their way of showing great respect to things used for God's purposes. Maybe that's not your thing. But you could probably come to understand why it's their thing.

Heck, if you can't understand the reverence for the things of God like bowing to an altar, I wonder what you'd think of us parading around with the Torah scroll, kissing it, dressing it in a "cloak", giving it a crown...

BTW,, you are a bit unusual. Most Christians tell me that Christianity is specifically NOT about what you do (i.e. living how Jesus tells you how to live), but about receiving the "grace" offered via Jesus' sacrificial death. I'm sure you will get Christian (including Catholic) responses to this.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point. For me, Christianity is about how Jesus taught us to live. Miracles, bowing to altars, and being sure to say the prescribed words at the prescribed time seem so beside the point of all-inclusive love.
Catholic teaching has much to say concerning the conduct of Christian life as it pertains to the moral law and our obligations towards God and each other. To complain that the presence of liturgy somehow detracts from right living is a nonsensical assertion. Liturgy is itself an obligation of due worship owed to God and it is in Mass (of any valid form) wherein Christ himself becomes bodily present in the Eucharist.

For example, the Apostles' Creed seemed focused on recitation of miracles and humility before a male God. But, it seems to me that Jesus didn't ask his apostles to do anything like that. Would it be more Christ-like to speak our own words affirming our commitment to caring for one another, most especially the least among us?
We believe that Christ instituted the Church and with it all seven of the sacraments as efficacious signs of grace.

Was this all just to create & reinforce a sense of community & tradition rather than to reaffirm Jesus' teachings? Maybe it was a display of culture rather than a display of religion?
Due worship is an act and obligation of religion.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point.
The mass covers what the Bible covers about Jesus and his teachings, so maybe your confusing entertainment with worship?

Here's the order of the mass:

Introductory Rites
  • Entrance
  • Greeting
  • Penitential Act
  • Glory to God
  • Collect
Liturgy of the Word
  • First Reading
  • Responsorial Psalm
  • Second Reading (on Sundays and solemnities)
  • Gospel Acclamation
  • Gospel
  • Homily
  • Profession of Faith (on Sundays, solemnities, and special occasions)
  • Universal Prayer
Liturgy of the Eucharist
  • Presentation of the Gifts and Preparation of the Altar
  • Prayer over the Offerings
  • Eucharistic Prayer
    • Preface
    • Holy, Holy, Holy
    • First half of prayer, including Consecration
    • Mystery of Faith
    • Second half of prayer, ending with Doxology
  • The Lord's Prayer
  • Sign of Peace
  • Lamb of God
  • Communion
  • Prayer after Communion
Concluding Rites
  • Optional announcements
  • Greeting and Blessing
  • Dismissal -- Order of Mass
You can also find explanations at this site.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
So where's the discussion of doctrine, proper behavior, &c?
The Mass is not for catechesis. (Although the texts and preaching within the Mass contain doctrinal content). The Mass is the central act of liturgical worship. It's incumbent on every Catholic to study the faith, for pastors and parents to teach it and for the Church to preserve and pass it down.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I went to my first Catholic mass today. I was underwhelmed. There was so much focus on saying prescribed words, and focus on the virgin birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus that I felt it all missed the point.

For me, Christianity is about how Jesus taught us to live. Miracles, bowing to altars, and being sure to say the prescribed words at the prescribed time seem so beside the point of all-inclusive love.

For example, the Apostles' Creed seemed focused on recitation of miracles and humility before a male God. But, it seems to me that Jesus didn't ask his apostles to do anything like that. Would it be more Christ-like to speak our own words affirming our commitment to caring for one another, most especially the least among us?

Was this all just to create & reinforce a sense of community & tradition rather than to reaffirm Jesus' teachings? Maybe it was a display of culture rather than a display of religion?
Mass is liturgical worship centered around the Eucharist and meant to unite believers in Heaven and on earth. The ancient Jews worshiped in a liturgical fashion, as well. It's supposed to take you from a secular frame of mind into a sacred space. There's more informal prayer meetings you can go to, but that's not the purpose of the Mass.
 
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