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Martin Luther - Good or Bad?

Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Was German reformist Martin Luther good or bad, hero or villain?
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Bad (I had said villain but villain to me suggests knowledge of horrible acts, Luther was oblivious to his negative views). A lot of German antisemitism was grounded in his views when he went over the deep end. For that matter a lot of his ideas were nonsense
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Luther's attitude toward the Jews changed over the course of his life. In the early phase of his career—until around 1536—he expressed concern for their plight in Europe and was enthusiastic at the prospect of converting them to Christianity through his religious reforms. Being unsuccessful in that, in his later career, Luther denounced the Jewish people and urged for their harsh persecution and destruction. In a paragraph from his On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them.[1] Moreover, he proposed "What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":[1]

  • "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
  • "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
  • "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
  • "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
  • "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
  • "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
  • "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"
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That's my answer.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
For the purpose of this discussion, by the way, I go with 'villain' or 'bad'.
 
RedDragon94

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
It's alright to think differently as long as you don't aim to hurt anyone. Radical thinkers aren't always radicals. In the case of Luther, he had an obsession with the his gospel and when belief leads to obsession it controls a person's impulses. This is why faith needs to be an evolution instead of all at once. Luther was reacting to the rejection of the "true" Jesus from the Jews and the Catholic Church. Psychologically I think he felt as if he were a persecuted minority. And as we see in America today, when minorities feel threatened by other groups of people the general reaction is not good. ***Not that this excuses his rhetoric of antisemitism.*** The problem is that in Luther's day Scripture was logic instead of reason and experience. I think Luther was wrong about how he treated Jews, but I wouldn't call him public enemy #1. Instead, I think Luther in a way helped humanity forward itself into the enlightenment era. How? Well, he translated the Bible into German and tried to put it in the common person's hands. This gave people the incentive to learn to read for themselves. Which, the common person in centuries before this in Europe was illiterate. So, in some ways I respect Luther. In other ways, he's just wrong.
 
RedDragon94

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
metis said:
Could you elaborate on this if you will?
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Sure. It's not like only protestants get to go to heaven for believing that Jesus paid everything for them to get there. (Though the Bible may teach that.) Luther was a heretic and yet he was orthodox about it. In the Catholic Church's mentality Jesus and the Church are synonymous. Whatever the Church says, God says. And it's even more so in that day and time because people are without the Scriptures to interpret them for themselves. In Martin Luther's mind it seems to me that God had become an oppressive force in the world and that he would change God by changing the Church back to what he felt was the way the first century Church was. And he was obviously pretty good at it.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
RedDragon94 said:
Sure. It's not like only protestants get to go to heaven for believing that Jesus paid everything for them to get there. (Though the Bible may teach that.) Luther was a heretic and yet he was orthodox about it. In the Catholic Church's mentality Jesus and the Church are synonymous. Whatever the Church says, God says. And it's even more so in that day and time because people are without the Scriptures to interpret them for themselves. In Martin Luther's mind it seems to me that God had become an oppressive force in the world and that he would change God by changing the Church back to what he felt was the way the first century Church was. And he was obviously pretty good at it.
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We could debate a couple of these points, but that would take us beyond what the OP is about. Let me just say that the Evangelical Church's ("Lutheran") and the Catholic Church's teachings on Jesus are very much the same and that the difference lies elsewhere, part of which you mentioned above. Another problem is that Luther did not bring the church back to its earliest roots, and he well knew that, and actually ended up being quite depressed about the Pandora's box that he had opened.

Anyhow we could maybe discuss this on anther thread if you disagree with me if you're interested.

BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church (yes, they do exist), had tentative plans to go into the ministry, but I have gone to my wife's Catholic church with her for some 50 years now.

Anyhow, thanks for your response.
 
N

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
It should be remembered that Luther didn't intend to destabilize the Catholic Church, for those who may be Catholic and see him negatively.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
The Reformation could have been a lot more peaceful and less nasty without him. If Reformation was Lenin then he was its Stalin.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
metis said:
BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church (yes, they do exist), had tentative plans to go into the ministry, but I have gone to my wife's Catholic church with her for some 50 years now.

Anyhow, thanks for your response.
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50 years??? I hope you're getting a discount on the tithing rates!
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
metis said:
The discount doesn't save me any money because that and more goes towards shul dues. :(
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I guess that's what you get for playing both sides of the fence!
And I sure do hope your synagogue is really nice. I can't imagine what type of place would make you pay more than 10% of your total earning in dues!
 
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