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Mark 16:16 , what is saving, the belief, or the baptism?

What is saving, belief, or baptism?

  • Baptism & belief, church baptism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Baptism & belief, baptism by Jesus

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Baptism only

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
  • Poll closed .

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Mark 16:16

What is saving, the belief, or the baptism?

Or both?
Which baptism? Jesus's baptism,
Or
The ceremony conversion baptism?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Baptism to wash away previous sins, and then saved by following the teachings of Jesus pbuh.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
If I'm putting my Christian hat on, I'd have said belief is way more important than the physical ritual of baptism, baptism is nothing more than a public display of commitment to the belief. Now I'm an atheist I don't really have much right to pick one of the options in a DIR thread, but I would have gone for option 'A', belief.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Mark 16 has some truth, some exaggeration, and some outright lies written by early Christians who were trying to start a religion and wanted baptism to become a part of their new Christianity. If people don't believe what you say then you don't have a religion.

"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel," is correct.

Mary Magdalene was not the woman who had seven devils cast out of her. Mary Magdalene was a female apostle.

The stuff about believers in the new Christian religion being able to cast out demons and take up serpents and drink deadly things without being harmed is all fabrication.

Also, this idea that you have to do something, get baptized or worship in some specific way, is incorrect. You don't have to do anything but choose to be good and set it into stone.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Syncretic :

As a youth, I grew up in a Christian church that had little knowledge and understanding regarding Christian baptism. Part of the congregation believed baptism was somehow important for some vague reasons and others had no knowledge of it’s import and felt no need to undergo “tubbing”, as our minister called baptism. The minister himself did not have knowledge enough to possess any strong opinion either way. So, once a month he would baptize those who wanted it and did not pressure those who did not want baptism. It was simply an unknown subject to such Christians. We had lost the knowledge of such things.

Part of the value of studying the Early Judao-Christian texts is to gain a clearer view of the characteristics of the earliest Christianities; their doctrines and practices. Study of early texts reveals the evolution of doctrines and practices and clarifies those things that have been lost to modern Christianities. Such loss of prior knowledge and change in doctrines and practices has always occurred. Moses laments that the Children of Israel

will abandon me and choose to follow the idols of the gentiles…they will worship the false gods…they will violate every sacred assembly and covenant Sabbath the very ones I am commanding them today to observe. (The Words of Moses 1Q22).

The phenomenon of changing and evolving orthodoxies applies to ordinances as well. For example, regarding baptism, Barnabas observed :

concerning the water, it is written with reference to Israel that they would never accept the baptism that brings forgiveness of sins, but would create a substitute for themselves." (Bar 11:1).

This same principle of changing doctrines applied to ancient Christianity just as it applied to the Jews as Paul indicates regarding the Galatians :

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.” (gal 1:6)

The Christianities today who know longer understand the original import and essence of Baptism, have simply repeated the same mistake as Israel made and as the Galatians and other Christian forefathers made in the loss of important knowledge.

The Catechumens (or early converts to Christianity) were supposed to be taught many things BEFORE baptism :

Let the one who is to be instructed in piety be taught before baptism: knowledge concerning the unbegotten God, understanding concerning the only begotten son, and full assurance concerning the Holy spirit. 2 Let him learn the order of a distinguished creation, the sequence of providence, the judgment seats of different legislation, why the world came to be and why man was appointed a world citizen. 3 Let him understand his own nature, of what sort it is. Let him be educated in how God punished the wicked...5 And how God, though he foresaw, did not abandon the race of men, but summoned them at various times from error and folly into the understanding of truth....6 Let the one who offers himself learn during his instruction these things and those that are related to them. (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - # 8 Instruction for the Catechumens - AposCon 7.39.2-4)

The import of having such knowledge before baptism was partly because baptism represented a covenant made with God and one was to know the choice and commitment one was making before making the covenant associated with baptism.


BAPTISM WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY TO THESE ANCIENT CHRISTIANITIES

Early Christianity taught that “Baptism is a great thing, ...Because if people receive it they will live” (The gospel of Phillip). In his vision of the church as a Tower built upon a lake of water, Hermas asks the angel, “Why is the tower built upon water, madam?”, the angel replies “it is because your life was saved and will be saved through water.” (Her 11:5) This descent into the water of Baptism, was associated with a great blessing and thus it was taught:

blessed are those who, having set their hope on the cross, descended into the water, because he speaks of the reward “in it’s season” (Bar 11:8)

Barnabas explained one meaning underlying this scriptural symbolism :

By this he means that while we descend into the water laden with sins and dirt, we rise up bearing fruit in our heart and with fear and hope in Jesus in our spirits.” (Bar 11:11).

The increase in hope was connected to the promise and covenant within the ordinance. Because it was a covenant, it was offered only to those who were WILLING and WANTING (and thus “worthy”) to make such a the covenant. Thus the officer of the guard, Annaias “being learned in the law, came to know our Lord Jesus Christ form the sacred scriptures, which I approached with faith” could claim he “Was accounted worthy of holy baptism”. (The Gospel of Nicodemus - Prologue)



TO THESE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS, BAPTISM WAS A SYMBOL OF A COVENANT BETWEEN GOD AND MANKIND

Just as a seal was a symbolic “Hallmark” or sign that authenticated, confirmed, or attested to a thing, Baptism was seen as a similar symbol :

For before a man,” he said, “bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead, but when he receives the seal, he lays aside his deadness and receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water; so they go down into the water dead and they come up alive. Thus this seal was proclaimed to them as well, and they made use of it in order that they might enter the kingdom of God.” ( Her 93:34)

Though baptism was a physical ritual, the ritual was simply a symbol of a spiritual reality. The critical thing that was happening was invisible. The covenant itself was NOT the physical ordinance, but rather it was the internal commitment and changing of the heart of the person. The physical ordinance is merely a sign that a covenant was made. Though the physical ritual was imitated repeatedly by later Christian counterfeits, the actual covenant that took place within the heart; the authority to perform the ordinance; and the associated internal conditions could not (and still cannot) BE imitated nor counterfeited. The commandments and the ordinances of the Lord were always “written on the tablets of your hearts” (I Clement 2:8) and the Lord knows our hearts....



AUTHENTIC BAPTISM WAS ASSOCIATED WITH AUTHENTIC REPENTANCE


In the authentic covenant, one may claim :

And he shall wash my soul with a laving from the land, And he shall raise me on wings upwards to dwellings. And shall set me in the treasure-house of the Father, where no thieves shall loiter.” (Govishn Ig Griv Zindag)

However, Christian counterfeiters became willing to baptize those unfit and unwilling as though God could be fooled into giving the Gift of the Holy Ghost to those who were simply “made wet”. They did not commit to have FAITH, to become HUMBLE and importantly, to REPENT of their sins before authentic baptism. The authentic promise was made : “in the TRUTH of Your covenant…to cleanse ONESELF from uncleanness…and THEN he shall enter the water (A BAPTISMAL LITURGY 4Q414) The counterfeiters lacked faith, repentance and sincerity, yet still complained (both then and now) when they have no holy Ghost.

If the convert did not uphold his side of the covenant of Baptism by humility and authentic repentance before undergoing the ordinance of baptism, then the Lord was under no obligation to uphold his side of the covenant of cleansing and bestowal of the Holy Spirit. The sequence was very important in this case (and in other cases).

and there are the two commandments: Unless they are performed in proper sequence they leave one open to the greatest sin. It is the same with the other commandments. (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 8:9)

The authentic sequence was always to cleanse oneself by sincere and humble repentance, before baptism.

...in the truth of Your covenant…to cleanse oneself from uncleanness…and then he shall enter the water (A BAPTISMAL LITURGY 4Q414)

This is not to say one could not become humble and repent later, merely that the ordinance, was of no benefit without Faithful humility and repentance. It was because there were qualifications to the authentic covenants he was willing to submit to, Annanias said he was “accounted worthy” of baptism.

The same principle was true of the counterfeits that was true of the honest refusals. The outward ordinance, by itself, had no efficacy and was good for nothing. The authentic ordinance itself could never be of benefit to those who refused to humble themselves in repentance, and who did not honestly make the covenant to God that was associated with baptism. Of those refusing authentic entry into the society of believers it was taught :

ceremonies of atonement cannot restore HIS innocence, neither cultic waters HIS purity. He cannot be sanctified by baptism… - for only through the spirit pervading God’s true society can there be atonement for a man’s ways…and so be joined to his truth by his Holy Spirit, purified from all iniquity…only thus can he really receive the purifying waters and be purged by the cleansing flow… - (CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11)

Anciently the counterfeit ordinances were noted and those involved were warned :

If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything and says, “I am a Christian,” he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded". (The gospel of Phillip)

How many times have those without faith in revelation from God claimed “I’ve prayed but received no answer.” and then conclude the principle themselves are at fault, never mind that they “unplugged the machine.” One simply cannot counterfeit the authentic covenant and commitment God requires for the baptismal covenant to be in full force and for the tangible blessings which accompany authentic baptism to be manifest.

I had not intended on dwelling on how Baptism became abused and relegated to “forgotten things” in the more modern Christianities, however, as I review the early texts, the texts themselves seemed so often to dwell on such things in an increasingly resigned and unfruitful attempt to prevent this ordinance from abuse and dishonor among Christianities.

Syncretic : In any case, whether these ancient Christians are correct or some other group is correct, I hope your own spiritual journey is good.

Clear
ειφιτζω
 

Dantedeven

Member
Belief is saving, but the conscious baptism is the point of no return, nor change of faith, ever. For both your sins and virtues shall be weighed twicefold on the soul after you baptize yourself with full knowledge of it. And if you are forced to be baptized by your parents as infant. Nothing changes, except that you can say: "I was baptized as infant." But in order to be really baptized, you need to be baptized on your own intentions. And with the holy spirit present in you. Otherwise, you are not baptized. Even if you are baptized.

However if you are not baptized, you are not per se unclean. For baptize is personal, but never unnoticed.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Belief is saving, but the conscious baptism is the point of no return, nor change of faith, ever. For both your sins and virtues shall be weighed twicefold on the soul after you baptize yourself with full knowledge of it. And if you are forced to be baptized by your parents as infant. Nothing changes, except that you can say: "I was baptized as infant." But in order to be really baptized, you need to be baptized on your own intentions. And with the holy spirit present in you. Otherwise, you are not baptized. Even if you are baptized.

However if you are not baptized, you are not per se unclean. For baptize is personal, but never unnoticed.
I'm not baptized, by the way.


I did present the argument, that Jesus command, to baptize the nations, actually means that once the nations are baptized, the people become believers, then Jesus, can go and perform His Spirit baptism.
Hence, church baptism is really for converts, or those new to the faith, or symbolic.

I'm not concerned about this, either way. My God belief is spiritual, and rlegated to the Spiritual realm.
 
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Dantedeven

Member
No, no, no baptism is not a must. And in order to be saved from anything, belief is a must.
But the Lord, God, will know if someone is baptized, for the Lord knows of the things,
that are hidden in the heart. And also of their intentions, and their weight.

And indeed, Jesus shall baptize this earth; with flames. And only the righteous ones shall
not burn therein, for they have faith in the Lord, with or without the religion of the Lord. Their faces
are white and shining. For within them is the Light, and the Light shall protect them from harm.
 
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