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Featured Mark 16:16: does it really mean what it says? What does it say?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Sep 13, 2018.

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  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Mark 16:16

    Note that, belief, is the thing that saves someone from being , presumably, sent to Hell.

    However, at literal reading, it mentions baptism.
    This...doesn't make sense, to have both meanings.

    Baptized, here, more likely means, the belief in the Scripture, ex,baptize the nations.
    Therefore, baptized, here, means baptized in the [religious belief, not a literal church baptism.
    Thusly, belief saves, as the verse states[ belief and baptism meaning the same thing, here.
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    Accordingly, two requirements are needed to be saved: That

    1) One Believe, and
    2) One is baptized
    However, if one is baptized but doesn't believe then you're damned. But it doesn't say what happens if one believes but isn't baptized. My guess is that you're not saved or damned, but most likely relegated to kitchen duty at church socials. So It looks like the consequences are

    a) Don't believe and aren't baptized . . . . Damned
    b) Baptized but don't believe . . . . . . . . . . Damned
    c) Believe but aren't baptized . . . . . . . . . .Kitchen duty
    d) Believe and are baptized . . . . . . . . . . . Saved

    .

    .
     
    #2 Skwim, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  3. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    As I read it, I thought it meant that the people who do believe,but never had the opportunity to be baptised, are also saved.
     
  4. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Well it certainly doesn't list it as an option. It clearly says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

    .
     
  5. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    It also says that those that only believe 'shall not be damned'.
    So what does 'shall not be damned' actually mean?

    It's a bit like in Judaism & Islam, where pork is forbidden to eat. However if only non-Halal/non-Kosher food is available, it is allowed(for the saving of life).
     
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  6. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I think the Bible is propaganda to promote a particular form of government: monarchy. If you follow the Kings commands you will be saved. If you do not you will be killed. The Bible is a religion for promoting monarchy and empire. Loyalty is more important than every other way of being. The "chosen" people have every moral right to kill the labeled sub-humans. Salvation and the promise of heaven comes from following the Kings commandments. It's all very authoritarian and manipulative of the follower.

    You would think an omnipotent God who needs absolutely nothing from us would be a wee bit more egalitarian in His choice of divine government.

    I'm not sure salvation is what God really wants from us anyway. God is probably more interested in us having a sense of humor about life or creating great works of art and culture. Assuming of course reality is a reality TV show for God and we exist for His entertainment.

    What difference does it really make if of billions souls go to Heaven and trillions of souls go to Hell? After several billion what difference does it make.
     
    #6 dfnj, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I suggest you carefully reread it.

    .
     
  8. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    I did and still make the same conclusion.
    It is common sense that a person could hear the Gospel and not get around to being baptised.

    However, assuming your take is true, I am still left with the same question.

    What does 'shall not be damned' actually mean?
     
  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    But it doesn't say that. It says, "but he that believeth not shall be damned." In other words, Those who don't believe will be damned

    Or as the ERV puts it "But those who do not believe will be judged guilty."

    .
     
  10. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    My wife just came down and told me to clean my glasses.
    My bad, I did misread.:oops:
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    First, most scholars believe that the ending to the verses after Mark 16:8 are an addition to the original text.

    The vast majority of contemporary New Testament textual critics have concluded that neither the longer nor shorter endings were originally part of Mark's Gospel.

    Mark 16 - Wikipedia

    Notwithstanding I’m comfortable with the text if a more profound and spiritual understanding of the words baptised, salvation and damnation are appreciated.

    For example baptism could refer to a process by which we purity ourselves from our baser human nature and attain to.virtue.

    Salvation is attaining to the nearness of God and damnation separation or being cut off from God.

    I believe both faith and deeds are essential to achieve salvation which is ultimately dependent on the Mercy of God.

    Just some thoughts.
     
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  12. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Thus the need to interpret the bible, rather than simply reading it literally.
     
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  13. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus Active Member

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    Talking about the gentile believers, the so called 'God-fearers'? Consider Mark 16:15 just before it.
     
  14. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    There’s a principle that’s used to interpret contracts that I think applies more broadly: the principle is that when somebody writes something down, they’re generally trying to communicate something meaningful.

    This means that when the wording of a piece of text allows for multiple interpretations, any interpretations that render all or part of what’s being said meaningless or redundant are probably not what the author intended.

    So you’re saying that “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” just means “he that believe that shall be saved.” IOW, you think that the “and be baptized” part conveys no meaning.

    Why do you think Jesus said it, then?
     
  15. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    That is a good question, IMO.

    I also don't think it is a literal church baptism since there is the "doctrine of baptisms" (plural) in Heb 2. Even the word "saved" has a multiplicity of applications" as it can mean "saved from this world system and its controlling power in this lifetime".

    I wonder if that might be a better application in the baptism of power as the following verses deal with the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
     
  16. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    ”And you’ll keep on interpreting it until it means what I tell you it means!”
     
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  17. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    You'll keep on interpreting it and arguing about the "true" interpretation till kingdom come, perhaps. ;)
     
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  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    In attempting to reconstruct Christianity and the meaning of this from scripture the modern definitions have to be thrown away first. Otherwise its useless and merely furthering modern troubles. Its quite what I expect from Satanists, however. I am not sure what you are these days, Disciple but that is unless I forget one of your positions. I think its great that you want to rethink things and dont object. To construct and estimate this is like excavation and requires looking at what comes before Christianity and attempting to understand what it is like to be Jewish, to be Jesus, to be a Pharisee. We have to slog through some learning in order to arrive at simplest explanations.

    'Baptized' He first tells them to preach his good news to "All creation" and then we read in verse 20 that this is accomplished by them. From this we can deduce he is not talking about gentiles. They preach to all Jews throughout the diaspora. This fits with church tradition which says Paul becomes the apostle to gentiles.

    By damned he alludes to the story of the evil people in the story of Exodus who are too lascivious, warlike and recalcitrant and who are not taken into the Promised Land. Those Jews in his generation rejecting Jesus gospel are equated with those people. He is saying that Judaism is wasted on them, that they are a dead branch of the family doomed to become just like the uncreate, that if their hearts had bedn soft soil the gospel would have blossomed in them. Its very harsh but has nothing to do with bodily tortures. In Pauline terminology it means spiritually dead.
     
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  19. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    The premise includes an interpretation.
     
  20. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Also, since, contextually, when one joined the Jesus followers, they were commonly baptized. It might be just a way of saying 'Jesus followers'.
     
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