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Featured Mark 15:38, Mark 15:39, what makes the centurion convert?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Mark 15:38
    Mark 15:39

    Mark 15

    •••
    Something the centurion, notices here, at the crucifixion, makes him say that Jesus is the lord.

    Most interpretations, have the 'veil tearing in two' as meaning an veil, which, the centurion, wouldn't "notice". The centurion would notice, however, the structure itself, tearing in two, (at the veil area, in other words, which is why he 'suddenly converts'.

    So, the Temple itself was basically destroyed, not a veil, which the centurion, at a distance away, would neither notice, nor, make him convert instantly to a new religion.

    •••
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    But the scriptures are talking only about the veil, not about temple being destroyed.
     
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  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Can you explain why the centurion suddenly converts?

    Mark 15:38
    Mark 15:39

    The centurion wouldn't notice a veil, as the Temple is at a distance away. He would, however, notice the Temple itself, tearing, in two.
     
    #3 Desert Snake, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Mark 15 doesn't need the context that the book of Matthew has, because what the centurion notices, is the Temple being destroyed. Other context for what the centurion notices, isn't necessary.
     
  6. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    The temple is nowhere near Calvary so that won't have anything to do with it. The passage says the centurion had "seen how he had died" - after the cry Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, and what with that and the darkness over the land for the previous three hours, the centurion sensed it, one presumes.
     
  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Maybe not 'suddenly'? Or what if Longinus legend had a real base?
     
  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    NT says it happened.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Actually, many scholars have, like me, , the place of crucifixion , quite close to the Temple. A geographic feature lends the perspective to the Temple, from the crucifixion area, also.

    Although the 'idea' proffered by academics is that the Temple , presumably, miraculously sustained throughout the massive earthquakes, that followed the crucifixion, (yet destroyed structures, so forth, [by the way, that is a miracle in itself, interesting it isn't noted prominently in writing, anyways, although the 'Temple' was supposedly destroyed later, it should be considered that the 'Temple' was a functionary place, ie, anything built there, would serve as the 'Temple'.

    What we do glean from the records , at a quick perusal, is that the Romans destroyed the Temple by tossing a burning stick, onto a wall, (of the Temple.

    So, another interesting artifact from history, the Temple was made of wood, and not massive stones.

    •••
    Regardless, interesting stuff.
     
    #9 Desert Snake, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  10. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    It is best not to regard the Bible as literally true, unless there is any verifiable independent evidence to support it.
     
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  11. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Yes. There are reasons to suspect that the early Christians wrote the gospels somewhat favourably towards the Romans, in order to lessen the persecutions they were liable to. It could be that this - highly symbolic - account of the first gentile conversion to Christianity, arose from this impulse. We will never know.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Veil is curtain...
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The centurion is unaware of the torn curtain, but it is 'sandwiched' between Jesus crying out and the centurion's response to Jesus' cry, such that the reader is likely to perceive the centurion to be responding to the tearing of the curtain.

    The torn curtain
    The significance of the torn curtain is as a theological statement that highlights the very moment of Jesus' death - even if it was unlikely to have been an actual event. Remember that the curtain could only be seen by someone within the Temple, but anyone in the Temple could not see Jesus being crucified outside the city walls. The priests who had remained in the inner courtyard of the Temple would not have known the moment of Jesus' death, yet Mark's Gospel clearly tell us that the veil was torn at the moment of death:

    Mark 15:37-38: And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

    Luke tells it slightly differently, but still requires those in the Temple to know the moment of Jesus' death. Raymond E. Brown says, in An Introduction to the New Testament at page 260, that in this gospel all the negative signs that accompanied the crucifixion, including the rending of the sanctuary veil, are placed before Jesus dies, so that the positive, salvific results of the death can stand out clearly. Brown recognises that this is also a theological statement, but with a slightly different emphasis than in Mark:


    Luke 23:45-46: And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Unless the account was allegorical, someone would have to have told the evangelists of the torn curtain. It is more than doubtful that the priests would have mentioned any damage happening to the curtain on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, and the associates of Jesus were all outside the city and watching the crucifixion from afar off, in a safe place:

    Luke 23:49: And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
     
  14. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    As I said before it is best not to believe in the literal truth of the Bible unless it can be independently verified, which in most cases it can't.
     
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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Yep.. Jesus was crucified OUTSIDE the city and nowhere near the Temple.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Jesus was crucified outside the city walls.

    The outside of the Temple was made of stone; however, the interior walls were made of cedar board covered with gold.

    The Temple was completed in 7 years. In addition to building God’s Temple, Solomon built a royal palace.

    Ceder Wood in the Temple | God as a Gardener
    godasagardener.com/2012/03/05/ceder-of-lebanon-wood-in-the-temple/
     
  17. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    We don't know that as a fact,
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Golgatha is outside the city.. I can't imagine Jewish people would have crucified anyone inside the city walls..

    Their garbage dump was also outside the city.
     
  19. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    We don't know for sure that a guy called Jesus existed, let alone all that the gospels claimed about him had any credibility.
     
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  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    And that matches the Roman seige? Don't think so.

    In other words, different inferences there, that's why I mentioned it.
     
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