Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Women don't like nice guys; they like guys who are edgy and present a challenge to them.
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Manliness and men in the US. Incels and others
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Women don't like nice guys; they like guys who are edgy and present a challenge to them.
In the US.
In my country women adore the nice sweet ones. And they repel the bullies.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
There are great guys out there, but there are those who think women are to be subservient. The US is varied.
Yes...but the narrative speaks of toxic masculinity all the time.
As if all men were toxic or something like that.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
The machismo factor matters in some cultures but not others. Masculine but not macho is probably the ideal, IMO.As for the United States, I guess some (I am not generalizing) women expect too much from men.
They tend to forget how great they are.They are selective.
This is just my personal perception. I am surely wrong, or maybe it's because I compare them with Italian men.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Radical feminists seem to think this, but it is societal or religious influence that causes the toxicity. It is certainly not reflective of the majority of men.
We call it maschilismo.
Which means male chauvinism and machismo.
Here the society is incredibly homophobic. Only towards men.
Heterosexual male is considered manly. Gay men are not even called males.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
For some reason, females can adopt certain male traits and clothing styles, and even express affectionate towards each other, but males can't. A macho society creates a narrow and inflexible standard.
Unfortunately here women are dissed as well.
Women who aren't that feminine...are really crucified (emotionally, I mean).
To some extent, a similar mentality exists in America - or at least it existed when I was younger and more acutely aware of these things. There's always been a certain peer pressure among young men and boys to prove themselves in this department. By the same token, I've gotten the sense that any man who is unmarried is considered suspect and may even be passed over for promotion or career advancement.
This may be where some of the "incel" stuff comes from, since young men are under pressure to find a young woman - any woman - just so they don't appear like some kind of "weirdo" in the eyes of their peers. That could be why incels come off as socially awkward. They may be trying to follow some sort of script in their mind and not really letting their feelings flow naturally.
I never heard of that movie, although I have seen other movies which feature Sicily in the 1940s. The most famous being The Godfather, when Michael Corleone hides out in Sicily and marries a Sicilian girl. One of his bodyguards tells him "In Sicily, women are more dangerous than shotguns."
Attitudes towards gays have changed quite a bit during my lifetime. What may have been true 50 years ago isn't really the same nowadays. I think it may have been humorously encapsulated in an episode of "Seinfeld," where a couple of men are suspected of being gay, and they kept denying it. "We're not gay, but not that there's anything wrong with that!" So, they're pressed to deny that they're gay, yet still not wanting to appear homophobic.
Interesting. But I have remarked that things like catcalling, and hitting on random girls is considered sexist and male chauvinistic by the feminist-woke Supreme Cult.
We imported the expression catcalling from the US and we don't have an equivalent in Italian because it's something normal. I remember when I was a kid, in the nineties, the guys in junior high who used to catcall girls were considered "real males".
In the US of today I cannot but remark a real witch-hunt. Against the heterosexual male (black or white, doesn't matter, it has nothing to do with race).
LOL...I never watched the movie. But I have watched that scene set in Sicily. Actually the guy in Sicilian never uses the word dangerous. He just says "In Sicily women are like lupara". Lupara is a type of shotgun, I guess.
In my opinion he just meant that women are calientes...nothing more.
Unfortunately in the US homophobia is real, as well.
But it's different.
Here gays are accepted, understood, respected.
But they are considered something that is outside of the "manliness" spectrum.
I think catcalling might be seen as an urban, working-class thing in the U.S., such as a common trope of a young woman passing by a construction site, with all the construction workers ogling and catcalling. But it's not considered "gentlemanly."
Here's an example of a law from 1905, which one might find in other jurisdictions across the country:
“That hereafter any male person in the City of Houston who shall stare at, or make what is commonly called ‘goo-goo eyes’ at, or in any other manner look at or make remarks to or concerning, or cough or whistle at, or do any other act to attract the attention of any woman or female person upon or traveling along any of the sidewalks, streets, or public ways in the City of Houston, with the intent or in a manner calculated to annoy, or to attempt to flirt with any such woman or female person, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor…”
Laws like this essentially outlawed catcalling, although I don't believe they're still on the books. It's a product of the same sexist, male chauvinist society that feminists opposed. Such laws might have been considered paternalistic and overly protective, which is something that women started to reject more and more. Along the same lines, a lot of women didn't want to be "lady like," because "well-behaved women rarely make history."
I think this may have led to a certain counter-reaction among men, who may have felt that they were no longer obligated to be "gentlemen" in the new paradigm. While today's men seem to struggle with what it means to be a "real man," the men of yesteryear focused more on what it is to be a "gentleman." Sometimes, the two terms might mesh and be associated with each other, but that may be where some of the mixed messages come from.
As a result, I've heard some women express frustration with an overall situation where "there are no more gentlemen" and "chivalry is dead." There may be some truth to that.
I would also add that cultural changes and shifts may also contribute to changes in how popular culture views relationships between men and women. In earlier eras, the cultural milieu was dominated by the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant view, based on their values and perceptions of what is the ideal. As other cultures started to permeate that insular bubble, attitudes and values also changed.
I think that relates to a whole plethora of issues facing America these days, both in the positive and the negative. We hear people talking about "culture wars" and wanting to have a "divorce" within the United States. Some people want to go back to the way things used to be. Others would rather progress and move forward. But the majority just seem to want to stay where they're at, although that may not be possible in the long run.
LOL...I never watched the movie. But I have watched that scene set in Sicily. Actually the guy in Sicilian never uses the word dangerous. He just says "In Sicily women are like lupara". Lupara is a type of shotgun, I guess.
In my opinion he just meant that women are calientes...nothing more.
Well, there's another scene where they show up at a small cafe owned by this man. They're describing a woman that Michael saw, and it turned out that it was the cafe owner's daughter. He just flew into a real hissy fit, but Michael explained his position and acted respectfully in old world style and charm. That's where the idea of catcalling girls and women by "real men" runs into a bit of a conflict, especially when it's another real man's daughter or sister.
I think views have changed over the years. One can look back on media from previous decades and see the issue being treated differently than people would typically see it nowadays. I think more people are mellow and tolerant to a large extent, although there still remains a large segment of those who are intolerant and seem to want to push a homophobic agenda. They'd probably like to change the Constitution, but if they can't do that, then they ostensibly want to change things in a cultural level, which seems to be why there's such a big focus on what they're teaching in schools.
As for the incels, I guess they'll just have to fend for themselves, like everyone else does. As long as they have a job, are paid fairly and access to affordable housing, healthcare, and other necessities of life, then they're shooting par. Whatever other problems they might be having pale in significance compared to those who might suffering from deeper problems.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
That's a lot of unnecessary pressure.
I called the cops on some men 'cat calling' me when I was a teen, going home from school... the stuff they were saying was really explicit, and I was having a rough day. Didn't feel like putting up with it. I asked "do you have any idea how old I am(16)?" They said they didn't care; it didn't matter with how I carried myself. I was a block or two from my destination, went in, called the police, and went back to see what happened. The cops told me they couldn't arrest them on that, because it was my word against theirs, but they were both extremely drunk, so they arrested them on public intox.
A young guy skating in the park told me he was super impressed, that the men did that to the majority of the women walking through the park, and that was the first time he'd seen anyone do anything about it. "You are hot, though" he told me. I shooed him away and went home.
One of my best ever compliments came from a construction worker. I was walking by a site, and had gathered some looks, and.... let out the biggest belch ever. A man shook his head and said to his coworker "I sure wish my wife could do that..."
Sounds like it. I wouldn't do well in Italy... I look like a woman, but my personality is about as feminine as a Mack truck...
Diana Del Bufalo is a famous entertainer that besides her job in theaters, vlogs something every now and then. She admitted she adores catcalling. In this video she is shocked that some Roman males catcalled her, even if she is hasn't put any makeup on.
I guess some girls here feel flattered. I find it flattering, it happened to me in the subway.
If it makes you happy, more power to you!
The loud attention always scared me. I'm glad its lessened as I've gotten older. Respectful compliments were fine, but lewd suggestions and forceful attitudes were downright frightening.
I had a friend that was getting cat called.. not only did she not have make up on(she rarely wore it), her hair was matted, and her clothes were dirty. She was having a real rough time. The calls enraged her, and she chewed the guy out. "Does it look like I wanna be hit on right now? No! You want some of this? Come get it! I haven't bathed in days! You like that?" He took off in a hurry.
As a premise, one must always be prudent and cautious and never trust strangers. Especially random guys on the street.If it makes you happy, more power to you!
The loud attention always scared me. I'm glad its lessened as I've gotten older. Respectful compliments were fine, but lewd suggestions and forceful attitudes were downright frightening.
I had a friend that was getting cat called.. not only did she not have make up on(she rarely wore it), her hair was matted, and her clothes were dirty. She was having a real rough time. The calls enraged her, and she chewed the guy out. "Does it look like I wanna be hit on right now? No! You want some of this? Come get it! I haven't bathed in days! You like that?" He took off in a hurry.
But since I do know that catcalling is something cultural here, this doesn't scare me or anyone else, on average.
They do it because they want to show off their manliness-
Because if you cat call a beautiful girl, you are a real man.
You don't need to hit on her. In fact nobody does after cat calling some beautiful girl.
That's much, much different from here. If you're calling after someone here, you desire action typically. There are exceptions, and occasionally some do it in fun or silliness, but most of the time people are looking for some kind of connection(whether romantic, sexual, or both).
I do remember right after I had my first child I was feeling poorly about my general appearance, I had a car full of young men follow me in my car, shouting sweet nothings out their car window. That was just silliness. I actually appreciated that, it made me feel better about myself(because the man I was with certainly wasn't encouraging about my after baby body).
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The problems of division between the sexes and races in America came from the Political Left in America. Their leaders tend to be both sexist and racist, but they use language games to hide this fact from their base. It is obvious to an outsider due to the hypocrisy. They paint each group with a one size fits all picture, that always benefits the race or sex they attempt to recruit.
According to the Left, all whites are racist and all blacks need reparation as though there are no exceptions based on time and space. It does not matter if you were not born when the "supposed" transgressions occurred. White has original sin. period. They cannot see individuals, in a rational way, or even make exceptions, except down their own party line, where hypocrisy rules.
There is also came up with the con job of toxic masculinity, but no such thing as toxic femininity, since they are trying to recruit females, who seem to buy into this. My older brother often said, women want you too lie to then, if it makes them feel better. The other team is bad and you are good, worked. He was always popular with the ladies.
Men can point out toxic women, but the pressure is on, based on the media allies of the Left, who only make exceptions Lefties, who cannot be sexist by Lefty definition. President Biden had a problem trying to cuddle with women in public, uninvited. This was OK, because he is from the Left. Now it is censored to keep it put of sight, since that dual standard does not fly with everyone. By definition this is not toxic, to the Left, since he is a Lefty. One can see how this hypocrisy can create problems and confusion.
Ever since the Left has decided to define its fantasy view of proper male and proper female roles, the country and family has declined, since the Left are not bright enough to understand the science behind how men and women are biologically different, naturally, but in complementary ways. If we teach the natural way, men and women have natural instincts to carry them through tough times. Willpower and choice, based on Left wing roles models, tend to fail. But since unnatural behavior is the trademark of the Left, there has been a decline in trust between both sexes. Neither want to commit, since each sense something missing in the other.
The gender bending fad is another way to further the unnatural view of men and women. If they can make females he-she, and then maintain that males are toxic by Lefty definition, women can become toxic, but in an unnatural way that is accepted. The same can be true of she-he. This is a further recipe for failure. But again the goal is to divide people, to gain votes, with the instigator acting like they are the savior.
Erebus
Well-Known Member
Tell me the situation about the United States. What manliness is, in the US. And why there are so many incels.
Thank you in advance.
I'm not American so I can't really comment on cultural differences. I have seen a few videos and articles about incels though, particularly about how they can become radicalised or driven to suicide.
They're typically young and introverted, possibly also suffering from anxiety or depression. After facing rejection, they look online for dating advice and to try to find out, "what do women want?" While a lot of dating advice is fairly benign, it's not difficult to stumble into articles, videos or communities that have a much darker element to them. Some might suggest being manipulative and callous whereas others will bluntly tell them that they just don't have a chance no matter what they do.
It's pretty easy for somebody to begin spiralling once they start to believe some of the nonsense they read. Women stop being people and instead become automata, driven purely by their biology. Women are only attracted to cruel, Machiavellian men with a very specific physique and facial structure. If you aren't one of the chosen few who women find attractive, you're out of luck.
It's an incredibly bleak outlook that only reinforces itself with repeated exposure. The low self-esteem, negative view of women and emphasis on having sex at any cost naturally make somebody who bought into that ideology much more likely to face future rejection. That in turn sends them right back to seeking advice from the very subculture that sabotaged them in the first place.
Obviously this is only a very brief outline of the process but there's plenty of more in-depth material out there. Also I've focused on heterosexual men here as that's who the incel subculture is centred around. It's worth mentioning though that anybody, regardless of their gender or preferences, can fall into a similar trap.