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Manifestations of God--a Question for Bahai's

arthra said:
The question I'd like to ask here is whether this thread should be focusing on Christian doctrines or whether it should be about Baha'i beliefs..
Well it's kinda both, since I initially asked about Manifestations of God in Baha'i, some of which I believe as a Christian were real people as well, and thus we were discussing our different perspectives on these people.

Walter Martin also was quoted earlier and that's fine but the the issue on the resurrection of Christ is pretty clear in the Baha'i perspective. We don't believe in a literal physical resurrection of Jesus as held by many Christians... You can argue about this but it's simply not a Baha'i belief...
Booko seems to believe that Christ was physically resurrected; however thank you for pointing out that it's not a teaching promoted by Baha'i (which is what I have been trying to say to Booko), but it does at least seem possible for a Baha'i to believe in it if they wish.

So I think somewhere a choice here has to made because I would question whether this is an appropriate place to be hashing around Christian doctrines..that's probably more appropriate in the Christian forum.

Argumenation can occur in the debate sections too but here as I understand it we're supposed to be focused on Baha'i beliefs and ideas.
I'm probably just a troublemaker who doesn't like to play by the rules, but it seems like more of a nuisance and a technicality to "move threads." The same people who were discussing it are still going to keep discussing it, no matter where we put it, lol. Booko suggested that we might want to make another thread since we started talking about the Resurrection of Christ, but as the starter of the thread I said that it was OK with me if we kept the conversation here (considering that we'll most likely be off on some other rabbit trail soon enough anyways, lol). If you really have a problem with this being discussed in this forum, then I won't complain about moving it, but I'm also perfectly fine with leaving it here (C'mon, let's be rebels! :D )

FGS
 

arthra

Baha'i
:yes: Fervant:

One reason I think these forums are set up the way they are is so that people can explore the various faiths on their own and if they choose to reject them or debate them there places for that. "rules is rules"

This is as succinct a statement on resurrection from the Writings as I've been able to find:
The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All their states, their conditions, their acts, the things they have established, their teachings, their their expressions, their parables, and their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. (Some Answered Questions, old ed., p.119)

_____________________


 
arthra said:
:yes: Fervant:

One reason I think these forums are set up the way they are is so that people can explore the various faiths on their own and if they choose to reject them or debate them there places for that. "rules is rules"
Yeah, yeah, yeah....whatever, Dad:p


This is as succinct a statement on resurrection from the Writings as I've been able to find:
The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All their states, their conditions, their acts, the things they have established, their teachings, their their expressions, their parables, and their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. (Some Answered Questions, old ed., p.119)​
Thanks for the quote, it does seem to be quite straightforward. However, I'm intrigued that it says, "resurrections of the Divine Manifestations." I thought we were talking specifically about Jesus here; is it a belief in Baha'i that all the Manifestaitons have risen from the grave? I've never heard any stories about any of the Divine Manifestations in Baha'i having risen from the grave other than Christ. Did Buddha, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah ever rise from the grave?

FGS
 

arthra

Baha'i
Well my "son":D Baha'is believe all the Manifestations of God are "resurrections" of the same pure teachings and spiritual power from age to age...

For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus - may peace be upon Him - till the day of His ascension was the resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shown forth through the appearance word punished by His word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God's testimony for that Day was that which He solemnly affirmed in the Gospel.

- Selections From the Writings of the Bab, passage on pp.106-8

Also:

Concerning the meaning of `Resurrection': although the term is used by Bahá'u'lláh in His Writings,... its meaning is figurative. The tomb is also allegorical, i.e., the tomb of unbelief.

- Shoghi Effendi in Dawn of a New Day: Messages to India, p.79

:rainbow1:
 
arthra said:
Well my "son":D Baha'is believe all the Manifestations of God are "resurrections" of the same pure teachings and spiritual power from age to age...

For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus - may peace be upon Him - till the day of His ascension was the resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shown forth through the appearance word punished by His word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God's testimony for that Day was that which He solemnly affirmed in the Gospel.

- Selections From the Writings of the Bab, passage on pp.106-8

Also:

Concerning the meaning of `Resurrection': although the term is used by Bahá'u'lláh in His Writings,... its meaning is figurative. The tomb is also allegorical, i.e., the tomb of unbelief.

- Shoghi Effendi in Dawn of a New Day: Messages to India, p.79

:rainbow1:
O i see, interesting. Except that Christ was resurrected after only three days; it didn't take Him 600 years until Muhammad came along; yet you still take His resurrection as purely "spiritual"...

FGS
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Hi again!

FerventGodSeeker said:
O i see, interesting. Except that Christ was resurrected after only three days; it didn't take Him 600 years until Muhammad came along; yet you still take His resurrection as purely "spiritual."

What you overlook is that Christ Himself stressed "the flesh profits nothing!" and that it's the SPIRITUAL that matters!

Resurrection is a spiritual process because things physical simply don't matter in the long run! Jesus implied this when He said "Let the dead buy the dead!" clearly meaning spiritually dead, not physically.

Each later Divine Messenger is indeed the reappearance of earlier ones, so in that sense both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah qualify as returns of the Christ Spirit. And as to the three-day thing, the Baha'i scriptures explain it thus:

CHAPTER 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from 104 the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended 105 the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

-- 'Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions

[end quote]



(I'll continue in another post.)

Peace,


Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Hi again, FGS!

To continue, there are these, also from the Baha'i scriptures:


[W]hosoever partook of the cup of love, obtained his
portion of the ocean of eternal grace and of the
showers of everlasting mercy, and entered into the
life of faith - the heavenly and everlasting life.
But he that turned away from that cup was condemned
to eternal death. By the terms "life" and "death,"
spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of
faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of
the people, owing to their failure to grasp the
meaning of these words, rejected and despised the
person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of
the light of His divine guidance, and refused to
follow the example of that immortal Beauty.
(The Book of Certitude, page 114)


y "resurrection" is meant His own rise to
proclaim the Cause of God.
(Ibid., page 116)


Such things have come to pass in the days of every
Manifestation of God. Even as Jesus said: "Ye must
be born again."(1) Again He saith: "Except a man
be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter
into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the
flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit."(2) The purport of these words is that
whosoever in every dispensation is born of the
Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the
Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those
that have attained unto "life" and "resurrection"
and have entered into the "paradise" of the love of
God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to
"death" and "deprivation," to the "fire" of
unbelief, and to the "wrath" of God. In all the
scriptures, the books and chronicles, the sentence
of death, of fire, of blindness, of want of
understanding and hearing, hath been pronounced
against those whose lips have tasted not the
ethereal cup of true knowledge, and whose hearts
have been deprived of the grace of the holy Spirit
in their day. Even as it hath been previously
recorded: "Hearts have they with which they
understand not."(1) In another passage of the Gospel
it is written: "And it came to pass that on a
certain day the father of one of the disciples of
Jesus had died. That disciple reporting the death
of his father unto Jesus, asked for leave to go and
bury him. Whereupon, Jesus, that Essence of
Detachment, answered and said: "Let the dead bury
their dead."(2) In like manner, two of the people of
Kufih went to Ali, the Commander of the Faithful.
One owned a house and wished to sell it; the other
was to be the purchaser. They had agreed that this
transaction should be effected and the contract be
written with the knowledge of Ali. He, the exponent
of the law of God, addressing the scribe, said:
"Write thou: `A dead man hath bought from another
dead man a house. That house is bounded by four
limits. One extendeth toward the tomb, the other to
the vault of the grave, the third to the Sirat, the
fourth to either Paradise or hell.'" Reflect, had
these two souls been quickened by the trumpet-call
of Ali, had they risen from the grave of error by
the power of his love, the judgment of death would
certainly not have been pronounced against them. In
every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets
of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but
to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms
"life," "resurrection," and "judgment." If one will
ponder but for a while this utterance of Ali in his
heart, one will surely discover all mysteries hidden
in the terms "grave," "tomb," "sirat," "paradise"
and "hell." But oh! how strange and pitiful!
Behold, all the people are imprisoned within the
tomb of self, and lie buried beneath the nethermost
depths of worldly desire! Wert thou to attain to
but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine
knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true
life is not the life of the flesh but the life of
the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to
both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit
is possessed only by the pure in heart who have
quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the
fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and
this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as
it hath been said: "He who is a true believer
liveth both in this world and in the world to come."
If by "life" be meant this earthly life, it is
evident that death must needs overtake it.
(Ibid., pages 118-121)


[T]he other lofty names and exalted attributes of
God. Therefore, whosoever, and in whatever
Dispensation, hath recognized and attained unto the
presence of these glorious, these resplendent and
most excellent Luminaries, hath verily attained unto
the "Presence of God" Himself, and entered the city
of eternal and immortal life. Attainment unto such
presence is possible only in the Day of Resurrec-
tion, which is the Day of the rise of God Himself
through His all-embracing Revelation.
This is the meaning of the "Day of Resurrection,"
spoken of in all the scriptures, and announced unto
all people. Reflect, can a more precious, a
mightier, and more glorious day than this be
conceived, so that man should willingly forego its
grace, and deprive himself of its bounties, which
like unto vernal showers are raining from the heaven
of mercy upon all mankind? Having thus conclusively
demonstrated that no day is greater than this Day,
and no revelation more glorious than this
Revelation, and having set forth all these weighty
and infallible proofs which no understanding mind
can question, and no man of learning overlook, how
can man possibly, through the idle contention of the
people of doubt and fancy, deprive himself of such a
bountiful grace? Have they not heard the well-known
tradition: "When the Qa'im riseth, that day is the
Day of Resurrection?" In like manner, the Imams,
those unquenchable lights of divine guidance, have
interpreted the verse: "What can such expect but
that God should come down to them overshadowed with
clouds,"(1) - a sign which they have unquestionably
regarded as one of the features of the Day of
Resurrection - as referring to Qa'im and His
manifestation.
(Ibid., pages 143-144)

(I'll head to yet another message.)



Best,


Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Hi, again; here's the finish, still from the Baha'i scriptures!

Strive therefore to comprehend the meaning of
"return" which hath been so explicitly revealed in
the Qur'an itself, and which none hath as yet
understood. What sayest thou? If thou sayest that
Muhammad was the "return" of the Prophets of old, as
is witnessed by this verse, His Companions must
likewise be the "return" of the bygone Companions,
even as the "return" of the former people is clearly
attested by the text of the above-mentioned verses.
And if thou deniest this, thou hast surely
repudiated the truth of the Qur'an, the surest
testimony of God unto men. In like manner,
endeavour to grasp the significance of "return,"
"revelation," and "resurrection," as witnessed in
the days of the Manifestations of the divine
Essence, that thou mayest behold with thine own eyes
the "return" of the holy souls into sanctified and
illumined bodies, and mayest wash away the dust of
ignorance, and cleanse the darkened self with the
waters of mercy flowing from the Source of divine
Knowledge; that perchance thou mayest, through the
power of God and the light of divine guidance,
distinguish the Morn of everlasting splendour from
the darksome night of error.
(The Book of Certitude, pages 151-152)


O brother, behold how the inner mysteries of
"rebirth," of "return," and of "resurrection" have
each, through these all-sufficing, these
unanswerable, and conclusive utterances, been
unveiled and unravelled before thine eyes. God
grant that through His gracious and invisible
assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of
the old garment, and array thyself with the new and
imperishable attire.
Therefore, those who in every subsequent
Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in
embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear
waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine
Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith
and certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in
reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the
"return" of those who in a former Dispensation had
achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the
people of a former Dispensation have manifested, the
same hath been shown by the people of this latter
generation. Consider the rose: whether it
blossometh in the East or in the West, it is none
the less a rose. For what mattereth in this respect
is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but
rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart.
(Ibid., pages 158-159)


It hath been demonstrated and definitely
established, through clear evidences, that by
"Resurrection" is meant the rise of the
Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause
(Ibid., page 170)


At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the
joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the
City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through
the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the
heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of
negligence.
(Ibid., page 196)


Peace,


Bruce
 

arthra

Baha'i
Wow...Bruce those are some great quotes! I think it was also Mirza Abul-Fadl who indicated the three days of resurrection were the manifestations of Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The three day timeline when taken literally is at best problematic according to many.

- Art
 
BruceDLimber said:
Hi again!

What you overlook is that Christ Himself stressed "the flesh profits nothing!" and that it's the SPIRITUAL that matters!
So then I guess you don't believe that Christ literally died either, or that it was necessary for Him to actually die? Booko doesn't seem to agree. I do not overlook Christ's words about the importance of spirituality, but I do maintain balance between the physical and spiritual; Christ literally, physically fulfilled a number of prophecies.


Resurrection is a spiritual process because things physical simply don't matter in the long run! Jesus implied this when He said "Let the dead buy the dead!" clearly meaning spiritually dead, not physically.
Actually, in that instance, He was speaking to a person whose father had actually died ;) ...he wanted to go to the funeral before following Jesus on His journeys.
In regards to the resurrection, if you claim it was only spiritual, you completely ignore the appearances of Christ to His disciples after His resurrection. He truly, physically appeared to them after His death and resurrection:
"Behold My (Jesus') hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Luke 24:39


CHAPTER 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things.
No connection at all? So then I guess we should just live our physical lives however we see fit, because all the practical teachings of Christ for everyday life are only "spiritual." ;)

Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth.
Yes, Christ had/has the ability to exist in more than one place at one time...thus furthering the evidence for the Christian notion that Christ is God.


Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact.
He was literally, physically born, was He not?

The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from 104 the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact.
Except again, He was literally born; why would we not equally say that He literally died and rose again?

Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
So what?
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended 105 the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics.
It's called a miracle...it doesn't have to fit with known science.



FGS
 
arthra said:
Wow...Bruce those are some great quotes! I think it was also Mirza Abul-Fadl who indicated the three days of resurrection were the manifestations of Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The three day timeline when taken literally is at best problematic according to many.
So is the existence of God, to a lot of people; why would that stop you from believing in a literal God?

FGS
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
FerventGodSeeker said:
So then I guess you don't believe that Christ literally died either, or that it was necessary for Him to actually die? Booko doesn't seem to agree. I do not overlook Christ's words about the importance of spirituality, but I do maintain balance between the physical and spiritual; Christ literally, physically fulfilled a number of prophecies.

Hi FGS: Sorry I had to bow out of this thread temporarily. It will take a little time to catch up, but let me start here and work backwards with whatever hasn't been addressed yet.

It's one heck of a leap to assume that if a resurrection was mainly of spiritual importance, there was no physical death. Christ obviously was Crucified, and our Writings refer to this specifically:

"Ponder on this story that you may understand the mystic power of sacrifice, of faithfulness, how these martyrs were stirred with the good news of the new dawn.

Let us make a comparison with the days of Christ. He had eleven disciples only, for the twelfth was the cause of his crucifixion. The leader of the apostles was Peter and on the night of the crucifixion his faith was shaken and he thrice denied Christ, through afterwards he became firm.

All were shaken but Mary Magdalen. She was a veritable lioness. She gathered the others together and said, "Why do ye mourn? Did not the Christ foretell his crucifixion? Arise, and be assured. They have killed but the body; the reality can never die, for it is supreme, eternal, the word of God, the son of God. Why, therefore, are ye agitated?" Thus this heroine became the cause of re-establishing the faith of the apostles."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 49)

Except again, He was literally born; why would we not equally say that He literally died and rose again?
So what?

Goodness, we don't say He didn't literally die. Whether He literally resurrected is something no one here can say for sure, since we were not there. There is certainly the metaphorical resurrection, whether there is a physical one or not. If there were no Resurrection, you would not be here typing as a Christian!

It's called a miracle...it doesn't have to fit with known science.
Actually it does. God sets up his laws and sees no need of breaking them. Now, as to what is miraculous, something may indeed seem to break physical laws, but it may be that we just don't know enough about physical laws.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
arthra said:
Wow...Bruce those are some great quotes! I think it was also Mirza Abul-Fadl who indicated the three days of resurrection were the manifestations of Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The three day timeline when taken literally is at best problematic according to many.

Do you know what Writings Mirza Abul-Fadl based that on?

I'm only acquainted with Abdu'l-Baha's explanation of the metaphorical significance, which has already been posted here.
 

shema

Active Member
Well to me, there are manifestations of God's Blessings on this earth, like our prayers getting answered. or God divinely changing the course of our current situations
 

arthra

Baha'i
shema said:
Well to me, there are manifestations of God's Blessings on this earth, like our prayers getting answered. or God divinely changing the course of our current situations

Shema ...

Thanks for posting here!

Yes we Baha'is believe also in God's blessings and that our prayers are answered and that God is able to alter situations:

"Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God ... To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, ... hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed.... And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace."

~ Baha'u'llah in Gleanings, pp. 177-79.




When we read about the "Manifestations of Truth" above, we believe this refers to Messengers and Prophets of God Who brought new dispensations at crucial times in the progress of humanity such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus and in this day Baha'u'llah.

We call them Manifestations of God because we accept that God is "manifest" in Them just as the Sun is manifest to us in a perfect Mirror. We see the Sun reflected in it's power and light in the Mirror. The Sun itself does not descend to the Mirror or to the earth as it would melt and vaporize us, the mirror and the earth. But we say yes the attributes of the Sun is reflected or manifest in the mirror...just as an astronomer will behold the image of the Sun in a reflector telescope.
- Art
:beach:
 
Booko said:
It's one heck of a leap to assume that if a resurrection was mainly of spiritual importance, there was no physical death.
The writings quoted did not say the resurreciton was MAINLY of spiritual importance, it said that the reusrrection was not meant in a literal, physical way at all.





Goodness, we don't say He didn't literally die. Whether He literally resurrected is something no one here can say for sure, since we were not there.
Nor were you there for His death, yet you believe in it ;) That's seems like an extremely poor excuse. All His disciples who were there at His death attested to the fact that He also rose again and directly, literally appeared to them. T

Actually it does. God sets up his laws and sees no need of breaking them.
From a Biblical, Christian perspective, this claim is nothing short of absurd. God broke His own laws all the time: causing the sun to sit still in the sky, causing the sea to split in half, turning water into wine, turning water into blood, raising the dead (including Himself). A miracle by definition is something unexplainable by science, chiefly because it is outside science. You may claim we simply don't know enough science to understand how these things fit into it, but then you can't agree with the claim that a literal resurrection is impossible for scientific reasons.

FGS
 

arthra

Baha'i
Booko said:
Do you know what Writings Mirza Abul-Fadl based that on?

I'm only acquainted with Abdu'l-Baha's explanation of the metaphorical significance, which has already been posted here.

Hello Booko!

Sorry I may have caused some confusion...

I was thinking of the "The Baha'i Proofs" by Mirza Abul-Fadl on pp. 126 - 129 where he mentions three Days of God referring to Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

He also shows in Miracles and Metaphors p. 69 how Christ referring to the spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist even though when we know Elijah lived centuries before is similar to the Return of "Christ" in future Manifestations like Prophet Muhammad and so on..

- Art
 

arthra

Baha'i
All His disciples who were there at His death attested to the fact that He also rose again and directly, literally appeared to them.

Comment:

I think there were reported appearances of Christ that could be explained by visionary experiences of the disciples ... Compare these with the Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah "appeared" before John, Peter and James in Luke 9:28-36 and Peter wanted to build tabernacles for each of them and for Jesus. Are we suggesteing that Moses and Elijah were physically resurrected here... I haven't heard anyone maintain that.

Baha'is maintain that the resurrection of Jesus was spiritual not physical and I think this has been clearly stated...so arguments about this probably belong elsewhere in a debate forum.

- Art
 
Comment:

I think there were reported appearances of Christ that could be explained by visionary experiences of the disciples ...
Not by a long shot. Note what Christ says to them when He appears to His disciples after His resurrection:

"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Luke 24:39
 

arthra

Baha'i
Fervent,

I think I understand what you are trying to say...It is a traditional view of the resurrection which we as Baha'is do not share with you. Visions can be very real to people and you can hear a lot of things in visions...no one I think will dispute that. Also there are meanings and significances in spiritual experiences that are symbolic that is how we see it. If you disagree that's your choice.

- Art
 
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