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Mandatory Vaccinations?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Friend of Mara, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. Friend of Mara

    Friend of Mara Active Member

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    Thanks for the article. It isn't really all that concerning so far but something to keep an eye on. It doesn't seem to be a dangerous level. Its a very narrow number within a narrow subset of individuals who took the vaccine. It subsides after 3 days and so far we don't have enough evidence to attribute it to the vaccine as a cause.

    Great thing to know but I hope this doesn't dissuade people from getting it.
     
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  2. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Nope, wrong again!

    There are two main types of immunity you can achieve with vaccines. One is so-called "effective" immunity, which can prevent a pathogen from causing serious disease, but can't stop it from entering the body or making more copies of itself. The other is "sterilising immunity", which can thwart infections entirely, and even prevent asymptomatic cases. The latter is the aspiration of all vaccine research, but surprisingly rarely achieved.

    The vaccines we have now for Covid-19 are effective vaccines -- and though they may provide me with a sort of immunity to serious illness, I can still transmit. That is, to anybody who cares a damn about their friends, fellows and communities, one hell of a good reason to reconsider vaccine cowardice.
     
  3. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind Eye

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    Here's a good conversation. A Fauci/CDC/China conspiracy theorist meets critical thinkers

     
  4. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    No, it's not: "Coercion - the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."

    I wrote, "you are not free of the consequences of your decision, which may cost you friends, your job, and/or your life." There is no force exerted and no threat. You are free to choose your path. Find friends and a job that agree with your choices. How is your position different from, "I can do whatever I want without regard for the people around me, but they can't do what they want - they also have to do what I want, or they are coercing me?"

    Please answer that. If you convince me that I am being unfair, I'll modify my position accordingly, which is, that we can show mutual concern about the needs of the other, or you do as you like and so will I.

    It's horrible that a group of vaccinated people don't want to be with the unvaccinated? I also don't want to be around people that are coughing for the same reason. Our bridge club asks people that are coughing to stay home. Is that also horrible to you?

    I'll bet they don't want to be around infectious people. My friends wouldn't come to me knowing they have a contagious disease, and if one did, he probably wouldn't be a friend after that. I can't imagine why I would want such a person in my life any longer.

    Of course, my situation may be atypical. My entire social structure is other retired expats, and my days are free to spend as I like. Twenty to forty friends is all I have room for anyway, and it is not hard to find that many people that share my worldview and values. When I was younger, I benefited from a broad exposure, even to people that I would later learn I am better off without. You know, like the guy who attacks you passive-aggressively and then says he was kidding and "can't you take a joke?" Gas lighters are unwelcome, as are people that can never be on time, people who steal from you or borrow without returning things, and more. You learn about these people early in life, and how to identify and avoid them. Then you do that.

    At this stage in life, I have no interest in sampling humanity further. I know what I want and don't want. I want people that are well-read, educated, liberal, not steeped in religion, not alcoholics or drug addicts, have a wide assortment of interests and expertises, a good sense of humor, ideally are well-traveled and are volunteers, are kind, love animals, respect the environment, are responsible, polite, clean, honest, thoughtful, have a pleasant disposition, etc..

    It's not hard to find such people where I live. After all, we're the people who moved to another country and culture. Such people tend to fit that description better than those we left behind, so we met more of them. So, if you prefer spending time with such people, and you can limit your personal relationships to just them, why wouldn't you?

    But many others do. If I'm right about that, and I know I am based on the opinions I'm hearing from the vaccinated, isn't it in your interest to know that rather than focusing on how you think things should be or prefer they be?

    I don't. They're free to do whatever lawful thing they like, as are those around them. Are people that choose not to bathe and are shunned for that victims of anybody but themselves? How is this different? One doesn't have to care about what the people around him expect from them, but if he doesn't, his claims of victimhood fall on deaf ears. It's always been that way and likely always will be.

    Do you mean exclude them from my life? They can go wherever they are accepted. Perhaps these people I mentioned earlier should start a dinner club with people that share their beliefs and values.

    Sorry that you seem to disapprove.
     
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  5. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    So what kind of immunity does Covid fall into?

    Also you cannot transmit unless a variation enters that reinfects a person with a new strain.


    Can someone who has recovered from COVID-19 still spread it to others? | MIT Medical
     
  6. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Absolutely not. A reason why I'm not a big fan of vaccines.
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I don't segregate and toss a friend aside because they "may" be contagious. And if they "are" contagious, my concern for them will lead me to help them-that, and they will know that I do care for them even if we decide not to be next to each other. I mean, when I have a cold, I don't cough in my friend's face, but I definitely won't segregate her.

    That's horrible. I mean, if you were married, I'd be shocked if you kicked your husband or wife out because she could be contagious without being vaccinated.

    I don't agree with segregation.

    Yes. It's coercion. You're saying that if someone doesn't get vaccinated, they should lose their job. So, its persuasion by guilt and loosing the job is a consequence if they don't want to be guilty for not following the majority of vaccinated people.

    Force by persuasion and threats by taking people's jobs unless they comply.

    "you are not free of the consequences of your decision, which may cost you friends, your job, and/or your life."

    "I can do whatever I want without regard for the people around me, but they can't do what they want - they also have to do what I want, or they are coercing me?"

    What's the difference?

    Big one. The first doesn't mention the type of consequences. It's "assumed" consequences. It doesn't say one doesn't care about other people-that's your assertion of consequence but not a fact.

    Some people say "I believe I can do whatever I want" but I assume the majority of unvaccinated people are indifferent. Just don't accuse them of not caring about people.

    Provaxxers, media, politics, are using coercion.



    I just picked the first one I saw. It's all on Youtube and on google. I rarely see the other way around. Confirmation bias.

    No. Who said that???

    The two are different. You "know" the person is sick when he or she coughs. So that makes sense. You don't know who has COVID-so your fear or concern-etc-makes you think every unvaccinated person is contagious.

    I rather know the facts and stay away than stay away off of a probability.

    But we're talking about probabilities not actualities.

    Not many people will be around others who they KNOW are affected. However, they won't send them too the wolves and segregate them. That's terrible.

    In this case you're judging complete strangers just because they say they are unvaccinated. That's different than actually knowing someone you distrust or know the context of a situation to avoid people who harm you.

    I mean, if I knew someone intended to harm me, I'd stay away. Not because they are unvaccinated, but because I know them personally. If a stranger said he wasn't vaccinated, I wouldn't care. If they had a gun, that's when I care. I don't know if he has COVID and won't judge him just because thousands of people died in another town. But if he had a gun, that's a different story.

    That's fine. You're judging strangers solely because they are unvaccinated.

    To put it bluntly, it sounds like the issue is yours not theirs. People can think things true in their mind-cognitive distortion-and base their lives and opinions off of assumptions and realize they are wrong no matter how much their assumptions they think are true.

    If I were in your place, yes. I would. But not because they are unvaccinated. More if they pose a danger to my well-being. I don't go off of possibilities unless the risk is high enough to assume there is one.

    I hear both sides and choose not to vaccinated. That's how people make decisions. They research and listen to both sides hopefully without confirmation bias.

    I don't see that as the same. Instead, it's assuming person X has not bathed and treating him based on that assumption and not facts.

    No. Just where should unvaccinated people go? An island on their own? Back of the bus? Trail of tears?

    Just your opinion of where to put unvaccinated people.
     
  8. Friend of Mara

    Friend of Mara Active Member

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    So a 90% effectiveness rate isn't good enough? Are you not a fan of condoms because they are only 99% effective?
     
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  9. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Experimental or approved?
     
  10. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    Well let see.
    They do not know how long protection lasts for those who are vaccinated.
    They do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19

    So why insitute mandantory vaccination?
     
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  11. Suave

    Suave Active Member

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    Because young adult men may have a nearly 30 times greater chance of getting heart inflammation by a C.O.V.I.D-19 mRNA vaccine than being killed by C.O.V.I.D.-19, they might wish to reconsider having to get vaccinated at a young adult age.
     
  12. Suave

    Suave Active Member

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    There's new data suggesting young adult men may have a roughly 30 times greater chance of getting heart inflammation by a C.O.V.I.D.-19 mRNA vaccination than being killed by C.O.V.I.D.-19. Hence, I would suggest young adults should seriously consider not getting vaccinated.
     
  13. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    How many people have received a C.O.V.I.D.-19 mRNA vaccination?
    How many "young adult men" have gotten heart inflammation by a C.O.V.I.D.-19 mRNA vaccination?
     
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  14. Suave

    Suave Active Member

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    I could not find nationwide data regarding mRNA COVID-19 vaccination distribution by age; however, in California as of June 8th, about 10 percent of people ages 12-17 have been fully vaccinations.
    Coronavirus: Vaccination percentages by age in Southern California counties and tier assignments as of June 8 – Daily Bulletin

    Assuming that rate happens to be the case for people ages 16 to 24 nationwide, then that would mean about 3 million Americans ages 18 to 24 have now been fully vaccinated. As reported by the FDA here: https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download ....there have been 283 cases of mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated young adult Americans having heart inflammation...I figure that's 283 out of nearly 3 million, or roughly 0.01 percent.

    Per CDC data, the C.O.V.I.D.-19 infection fatality rate for young adults is about 0.003 percent.

    https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku

    C.O.V.I.D.-19's 0.003 percent infection fatality rate among young adults is far less than the heart inflammation rate of 0.01 percent among young adult males having been vaccinated by a C.O.V.I.D.-19 mRNA vaccine.

    Because young adult men may have a nearly 30 times greater chance of getting heart inflammation by a C.O.V.I.D-19 mRNA vaccine than being killed by C.O.V.I.D.-19, they might wish to reconsider having to get vaccinated at a young adult age.
     
  15. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I've probably lost a friend, but not because he might be contagious. That's why he couldn't dine with us. If I've lost a friend, it is because he wouldn't accept the group's preference to make the event vaccinated only. That's his choice. He could have said that this is what he chooses to do, and that he understands that others might feel differently and not want to be with him until he is vaccinated.

    Incidentally, if one of us that is vaccinated catches COVID, that person would not be welcome until they convalesced. I would expect that such a person would take themselves out of the rotation, and I would need to rethink the friendship if he refused and pitched a fuss about it, which is probably very unlikely among those recognizing the importance of vaccination.

    No. I don't mind if such people get or keep a job. I also don't mind an employer requires vaccination of employees.

    I'm not looking to hurt these people, just to avoid them for as long as they are unvaccinated and coronavirus is still in the community.

    No, I think every unvaccinated person is over ten times more likely to be infectious at any given time.

    I'll bet that probability underlies many of your decisions. Do you go out in lightning storms? Do you stay off the roads on New Years Eve? Do you have health insurance? Would you play Russian Roulette?

    Yes. You seem to think that's inappropriate.

    Wherever they're welcome.
     
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  16. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    You know, it would have been good if you had carefully read the link you provided.

    Look, I can't tell anybody what to do -- you gotta do what you gotta do. But I can tell you this: while we don't know everything, we do know that there are things we can do to mitigate this virus, and to slow it and maybe even stop it.

    If you don't want to do those things, well that's up to you. I do them because I know (in this case meaning "I am convinced") that if I had not kept my social distance, if I had not worn a mask, if I had not paid attention to personal hygeine, if I do not get vaccines when they are available -- then all of those things put me, the people I love, the people who are in my community at increased risk.

    And I do not wish to put either myself or anyone at else at increased risk. If you are not concerned about that, well, that's up to you.
     
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  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Did he cause a fight?

    Friends have differences of opinion. Unless there's something deeper involved in this, let him not accept it and let it be. That shouldn't change the friendship. But of course this depends on other factors (I hope?).

    But you're going off of probabilities and assuming because people are at risk of getting COVID they are all at the same risk.

    But, yeah. If you and he knows he had COVID, then I'd assume it would be respectful to wait until he is over it-and hopefully, when he is you guys won't ask for a confirmation.

    I hope that your friendship isn't "solely" based on his acceptance. Personally, that's not a reason to reassess a friendship.

    Your concern is justified. I just think you're taking it a bit too far with the assumptions.

    That doesn't make sense. Someone who lives in the boonies is less likely to catch it than someone in a highly populated area. Statistics divide higher risk and assess higher risk people for a reason. If they dumbed them all in one boat, people would go nuts.

    Actually, yes. I do go out in lightning storms. Here we don't have dry weather, so the probability is lower than in dry heat. I do have health insurance but even if I didn't (if I were healthy) that would be taking a chance but depends on the level of risk. For example, I have epilepsy and have 5,000 dollars over worth of meds. If I had a seizure because of no meds, I can't work and I'd probably be dead. Compared to someone who is relatively healthy and has insurance just in case but not at a higher risk than I am without insurance.

    Depends.

    Yes. I do. People are all over the world on RF and just because they say they aren't vaccinated doesn't make them at high risk-but it seems like any risk no matter how small concerns you regardless if you know they have COVID or not. So.

    But my question wasn't about their choice but your opinion based on what you've been saying.

    Since you and the people you know segregated one woman out cause she wasn't vaccinated (so I remember), I am curious if that's what you'd do with other unvaccinated people.

    It's fine if you're honest about it; but, I really want to know.
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    I don't think I could get proof that someone actually contracted
    Covid 19. (I know at least one person who claims to have had
    it, but he's really only guessing that he did....he's not been tested.) Proof of vaccination is easy, although there is the risk that the
    card is bogus.
    If someone is already an anti-vaxer, I'd rather not rent to them
    because they'd skip any needed booster. Tis better to rent to
    someone who appears to pose the lower risk to us.
     
  19. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    It was a couple, and they were a little hurt. There wasn't a fight, but nobody was happy, not those asking others to stay home, and not those being asked. I hope that they aren't still angry. I don't know what the future of the relationship is at this time.

    I'm assuming that all unvaccinated people are more likely to be infected at any given moment than vaccinated people in any given locale.

    Perhaps. But in both locations, the unvaccinated are more likely to be infected at any given time.

    Sorry to hear about your health issues.

    It does where I live. Mexico is not as far along in its vaccine rollout as the States.

    No unvaccinated person is invited to dinner at my home at this time. Do you think it should be otherwise?
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Okay... so can you figure out the answer to your own question? Think hard.

    That's the reason why you're not a big fan of vaccines? o_O

    Somehow, I have a feeling that this isn't true.
     
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