Mandatory Vaccinations?

[Kooky]

Actually, I think business owners should be required to pay for their employees' vaccinations.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They knew about the smoking ban before they got the job. How does that compare?

Did they?

Plenty of people still working today started working before smoking bans were put in place.

And that aside, employers have the power to change job requirements. It would be ridiculous to argue that an employer can never, ever change health and safety rules.

 

[Vinayaka]

They knew about the smoking ban before they got the job. How does that compare?

When my school by way of the school district, decided to go no smoking 30 or so years ago, one of the teachers quit teaching.

My comparison was only about the endangerment of other peoples lives, nothing else. But you're free to read into it any way you want. This morning I came very close to walking out of a business (car dealership) because they were ignoring their own mandatory masking posted on their front door. We have the right to know which places are safer than others.

 

[Vinayaka]

Did they?

Plenty of people still working today started working before smoking bans were put in place.

And that aside, employers have the power to change job requirements. It would be ridiculous to argue that an employer can never, ever change health and safety rules.

Even if the employers didn't want to, they still have to follow government law. Why do we have restaurant inspectors? Because food safety is important. In my province, I can check a restaurant's record for health violations before I go to the establishment. There are literally dozens of facets to life that are for safety. We live safer lives because of them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Did they?

Plenty of people still working today started working before smoking bans were put in place.

And that aside, employers have the power to change job requirements. It would be ridiculous to argue that an employer can never, ever change health and safety rules.

They did? We have smoking ban signs everywhere as if its part of the scenery. It's not a business decision (from what I gather) but a legal one. That and its not a good example because no one is saying you are harming others because you smoke unless you choose to smoke around others.

I mean, I'd understand the logic behind it if they gave notice ahead of time and gave employees options or something similar. I mean getting vaccinated because one feels they are doing it for the best of their community is one thing, but to all of the sudden be threatened to loose their job over it-the principle is short term benefit but not thinking of the long term consequence.

I mean, if the majority did not take the vaccine because they were told they would be fired, then how would businesses and the hospital react to that? Would they say "that's their loss?"

Unless they would do it for the majority, I think the problem is more than just not taking the vaccine.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When my school by way of the school district, decided to go no smoking 30 or so years ago, one of the teachers quit teaching.

My comparison was only about the endangerment of other peoples lives, nothing else. But you're free to read into it any way you want. This morning I came very close to walking out of a business (car dealership) because they were ignoring their own mandatory masking posted on their front door. We have the right to know which places are safer than others.

I was just wondering how do they compare. Asking clarification isn't reading into it.

Over here its by law, if I'm not mistaken, to have smoke signs. The only way one can actually put someone in danger is if they were around the person who smoked. However, if people didn't know who smoked and who did not, you can give people the patch just in case but that only tells people who were smoking. But if there isn't a patch, then we can go around thinking people will endanger us because they could be smoking or not: this causes negativity, protests, and a lot of issues.

Here, there isn't discrimination (ideally), so if everyone was told to wear the patch even if they are not smoking (since no one knows), that would be a problem. Also, those who choose not to wear a patch against the majority would be shunned, fired, so have you. So, there's a fine legal line but I don't believe someone should automatically lose their job for it.

Don't read into my trying to discredit the vaccine and all of that. It's a terrible assumption and it is wrong. I just think comparing it to smoking isn't a good comparison and in the states its a bit different-even depending on the state, of course.

No debating or anything like that.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Nobody should be forced to take medications against their will. Especially experimental ones.

But should an employer be forced to retain someone who has the potential to infect other employees, or the firm's clients? The state has the power to quarantine someone who can be shown to be infectious to others, after all (see Typhoid Mary).

I am suggesting that you are free to not get vaccinated, if you'd rather not, but then I think employers and even people in your social network should also be free to keep you away from them -- for their protection, since you didn't see fit to protect yourself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And that aside, employers have the power to change job requirements. It would be ridiculous to argue that an employer can never, ever change health and safety rules.

True. But the way it is done and the backlash is making it worse. It's fine not to take the vaccine if one is say social distancing, not a high risk, and self-care but since employees don't know who is at risk those who aren't get shoved aside.

It's a catch 22. But if the majority didn't take the vaccine, then they'd go out if business.

If it cant be applied both ways, it's more than just taking the vaccine. I'm not against taking the vaccine but against coersion and backlash and long term consequences because of people's negativity surrounding it.

I understand business positions but I do think the hospitals could have warned beforehand and not drop a bomb. That's. The problem.

People are so hooked at putting people down for not taking the vaccine but if they become homeless, it's "their fault."

I try to give everyone benefit of the doubt, but sometimes.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually, I think business owners should be required to pay for their employees' vaccinations.

They started doing that. Other companies are offering work incentives. I saw one said the provaxxer will get a bonus of some sort.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They did? We have smoking ban signs everywhere as if its part of the scenery. It's not a business decision (from what I gather) but a legal one.

That's right. Speaking for myself, when I started working in retail (in 1996), they still allowed smoking in our store cafeteria. I don't think it was banned altogether here until around 2000.

Even then, when I'd travel in the US all through the early 2000s, I'd run into smoking in workplaces, depending on the state.

That and its not a good example because no one is saying you are harming others because you smoke unless you choose to smoke around others.

Here, smoking is prohibited in all workplaces, including workplaces where only one person works... e.g. work trucks.

I mean, I'd understand the logic behind it if they gave notice ahead of time and gave employees options or something similar.

They didn't give the employees notice?

And they did give them options: get vaccinated or find a job somewhere else.

I mean getting vaccinated because one feels they are doing it for the best of their community is one thing, but to all of the sudden be threatened to loose their job over it-the principle is short term benefit but not thinking of the long term consequence.

I disagree. They considered the long-term consequence; it's positive.

I mean, if the majority did not take the vaccine because they were told they would be fired, then how would businesses and the hospital react to that? Would they say "that's their loss?"

Unless they would do it for the majority, I think the problem is more than just not taking the vaccine.

Luckily, the majority of the population aren't anti-vaxxers.

But let's turn your hypothetical around: what should this hospital do if the majority of their workers decided not to get vaccinated, but the hospital decided that they wouldn't be fired? What would the hospital do? They still have a responsibility to protect their patients from deadly diseases, so they can't have these fools doing front-line patient care. Most nurses can't do their jobs from home, and a hospital only has so many jobs in HR/accounting/etc. that don't involve contact with patients.

 

[sun rise]

Businesses can have mandatory drug tests for employees (which varies by state etc).

This to me is an extension when such testing is done for the health and safety of other employees and customers.

And very often employees have to sign contracts which could contain such clauses.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's nothing experimental about these vaccines at this point.

It is. They're testing it on children now.

Would people still vaccinate if it just came out?

I don't think many cared about it being experimental cause of other factors like loved ones sick, job, and high risk but it still is experimental

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True. But the way it is done and the backlash is making it worse. It's fine not to take the vaccine if one is say social distancing, not a high risk, and self-care but since employees don't know who is at risk those who aren't get shoved aside.

Most workplaces can't accommodate physical distancing consistently. Desks aren't spaced 2 m apart from each other (or 2 m apart from aisles), and there are only so many doors, stairwells, elevators, washrooms, etc.

It's a catch 22. But if the majority didn't take the vaccine, then they'd go out if business.

You keep on going on about this, but the majority have already taken the vaccine.

The US is at 51% of the population with at least one dose. My province just passed 60% of adults with one dose. Most first-world countries are in a similar situation.

If it cant be applied both ways, it's more than just taking the vaccine. I'm not against taking the vaccine but against coersion and backlash and long term consequences because of people's negativity surrounding it.

I understand business positions but I do think the hospitals could have warned beforehand and not drop a bomb. That's. The problem.

People are so hooked at putting people down for not taking the vaccine but if they become homeless, it's "their fault."

It would be their fault.

If they don't want to be vaccinated, then they have options:

• Find an employer who doesn't care about employee health and safety
• Find a job that can be done entirely from home

An unvaccinated nurse or cleaner isn't entitled to expose patients to a deadly disease, and they also aren't entitled to be retrained to work in accounting or whatever just because they've decided to act foolishly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even if the employers didn't want to, they still have to follow government law. Why do we have restaurant inspectors? Because food safety is important. In my province, I can check a restaurant's record for health violations before I go to the establishment. There are literally dozens of facets to life that are for safety. We live safer lives because of them.

I agree.

I have to do work in the roadway; the health and safety rules we have to follow are certainly more onerous than they were when I started my career. You have to take time to fill out a traffic protection plan before you go out, you have to lug around a bunch more equipment, you have to take time to set it all up... the same task takes longer than it used to.

... but I deal with it. I would never think of going to my manager or Health & Safety and saying "nuh-uh. This rule wasn't something I had to do when I started, so I'm not going to do it."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's right. Speaking for myself, when I started working in retail (in 1996), they still allowed smoking in our store cafeteria. I don't think it was banned altogether here until around 2000.

Even then, when I'd travel in the US all through the early 2000s, I'd run into smoking in workplaces, depending on the state.

Yeah. They segregate the smoking and the non-smoking-restaurants is a good example. It does depend on state.

Here, smoking is prohibited in all workplaces, including workplaces where only one person works... e.g. work trucks.

If it weren't prohibited, would you guys feel obligated to smoke near people who doesn't smoke?

Can a person be allowed to smoke without feeling they are harming anyone by doing so?

I know if we have any symptoms of COVID at my job we Must take off. They can't ask us if we do have symptoms though. So, even if we all get the shot (half the office decided not to), the rules are still the same. We can't ask who got the vaccine and who did not anymore than we can ask what medicines a person take.

Some states are saying they won't have that type of requirement of businesses because employers (non-health and education related) don't need to know who has what. Its fine to change policies, just I hope its for the right intentions and not for a black vs. white perspective. They give people enough time to think about it and don't hinge having a job over their heads as if every person is in the same situation.

They didn't give the employees notice?

And they did give them options: get vaccinated or find a job somewhere else

From the OP video, it didn't seem like it. Seemed like the hospital just dropped the bomb and say get the vaccine or you out of here.

There's a lot of homeless here, so I don't know how they'd handle that in Virginia but I guess other places people have options.

I disagree. They considered the long-term consequence; it's positive.

Positive? If the majority lost their jobs because it's their fault, what does that say about the provaxxers and their concern over people?

I think many would be more willing to take it if it wasn't new. I mean if someone gave me a choice to take a said med, I'd want to take one that's been out for years not one that has been tested for a couple. I can't blame antivaxxers, really.

Luckily, the majority of the population aren't anti-vaxxers.

But let's turn your hypothetical around: what should this hospital do if the majority of their workers decided not to get vaccinated, but the hospital decided that they wouldn't be fired? What would the hospital do? They still have a responsibility to protect their patients from deadly diseases, so they can't have these fools doing front-line patient care. Most nurses can't do their jobs from home, and a hospital only has so many jobs in HR/accounting/etc. that don't involve contact with patients.

I know. But I used the hypothetical because I wanted your opinion on what would happen if the majority did Not get vaccinated in businesses. How would businesses handle that if they loose majority of their employees?

With the hospital, I get it. My point is how they did it not getting vaccinated in itself.

I'm not against vaccination. I'm against how its promoted, forcing it on people, negativity, and people's attitudes with what they call antivaxxers. Businesses that aren't health, travel, and education related, I don't see why it needs to be mandatory or loose your job.

I get what you're saying. I wish it could have been handled differently. I mean even on RF people probably want to throw unvaccinated people on their own island. I think it is deeper than getting TB shots and comparing it to smoking. It kind of masks the actual problem behind it all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Most workplaces can't accommodate physical distancing consistently. Desks aren't spaced 2 m apart from each other (or 2 m apart from aisles), and there are only so many doors, stairwells, elevators, washrooms, etc.

I think generalization would be appropriate here since over here we have more than enough space and tables are aligned or missing to make space. I think businesses can be fined if there isn't some sign and enforcement on social distancing. I mean, in SEC they have only one person can ride an elevator at a time in one side of the building and it's a huge building. While at the hotel I stayed at, there wasn't a limit just people thought for themselves and decided to wait until they were alone.

You keep on going on about this, but the majority have already taken the vaccine.

The US is at 51% of the population with at least one dose. My province just passed 60% of adults with one dose. Most first-world countries are in a similar situation.

Yes. I was asking a hypothetical to get your opinion.

It would be their fault.

If they don't want to be vaccinated, then they have options:

• Find an employer who doesn't care about employee health and safety
• Find a job that can be done entirely from home

An unvaccinated nurse or cleaner isn't entitled to expose patients to a deadly disease, and they also aren't entitled to be retrained to work in accounting or whatever just because they've decided to act foolishly.

That's coercion. If someone was applying for a job and they required vaccination, then yeah, find another position. I can't imagine being in a position where I'm told I'm not thinking of others because I choose not to vaccinate. That's a direct insult to medical professionals but then the same day thank them for their services.

I'd be in favor of just getting tested once a year (or the whatever interval is), not get vaccinated. I think they have that with airports here in the states (guessing) where if you're not vaccinated you can be tested there. I'd assume unvaccinated would probably get tested but depends on what country they go to. I don't know.

 

[Deeje]

Absolutely. You have every right to refuse to be vaccinated, but you have to be willing to live with the consequences, which is that much of society may choose to shun you.

You know, I can never understand this argument.....if you are vaccinated, what do you have to fear from those who aren't? People die from the flu (a corona virus) every year despite being vaccinated because of the variants......why is the covid vaccine any different? The original covid strain has now mutated into many variants which this vaccine does not cover, so I have no great faith in it at all.

Are we not allowed to make our own decisions about what is injected into our own bodies....especially a rushed and largely untested vaccine that does not work for all strains? It looks like its more about the profits for the manufacturers rather than the safety of the vaccine itself. The AZ has killed people from blood clots.....the irony is not lost when those who took the vaccine in confidence, believing that it was safe, became very ill or died because of trying to avoid covid.

I'll take my chances and appropriate precautions rather than allow something that has not really proven to be effective, to give me a false sense of security.

That is my personal opinion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think generalization would be appropriate here since over here we have more than enough space and tables are aligned or missing to make space. I think businesses can be fined if there isn't some sign and enforcement on social distancing. I mean, in SEC they have only one person can ride an elevator at a time in one side of the building and it's a huge building. While at the hotel I stayed at, there wasn't a limit just people thought for themselves and decided to wait until they were alone.

I don't know of any place that absolutely requires physical distancing.

Plenty of jurisdictions have rules that require masks anywhere that 2 m separation can't be maintained; some states don't even require that much.

Yes. I was asking a hypothetical to get your opinion.

A useless hypothetical, since we know it's already physically impossible.

That's coercion.

Sure. This doesn't make it bad, though.

If someone was applying for a job and they required vaccination, then yeah, find another position. I can't imagine being in a position where I'm told I'm not thinking of others because I choose not to vaccinate.

Your lack of imagination isn't anyone's problem but yours.

That's a direct insult to medical professionals but then the same day thank them for their services.

There's no insult to responsible medical professionals.

And the ones who would refuse to get vaccinated... I'm fine with them feeling insulted. If they paid more attention in school, they wouldn't be anti-vaxxers.

And there's quite a bit of insult to responsible medical professionals to put them at risk of a deadly disease because we don't want to do anything about reckless fools that they might be working with. Part of respect for employees means ensuring a safe workspace.

I'd be in favor of just getting tested once a year (or the whatever interval is), not get vaccinated. I think they have that with airports here in the states (guessing) where if you're not vaccinated you can be tested there. I'd assume unvaccinated would probably get tested but depends on what country they go to. I don't know.

Since you've made it clear that your position is unreasonable, I don't really care what you would support.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You know, I can never understand this argument.....if you are vaccinated, what do you have to fear from those who aren't?

"If you have seat belts and air bags, what do you have to fear from me running into your car?"

 

[QuestioningMind]

One should get the vaccine so they won't be shunned?

Personally I think you should get the vaccine because it's the common sense thing to do. But if someone chooses to not get one they should be prepared for the reality that a significant portion of the population won't want to interact with them.