Mandatory Vaccinations?

[Unveiled Artist]

The nursing home chain where my father lives has mandated all workers to be vaccinated or lose their jobs, unless they have a medically justified exemption.

This is so obviously the right thing to do that I cannot understand why anyone would question it. Any unvaccinated worker in a care home is a potential vector of a disease that is deadly to a large proportion of the residents. It is the height of irresponsibility to put the people you are supposed to be nursing at risk of death.

I can see the risk. I'm not a "I told you so..." person. If the risks of catching it outweigh not catching it (which should not have to do with being vaccinated), I can see it. If it doesn't, it's a just in case measure.

They are both. Justified.

I'm just not an "I told you so" person.

In a nursing home you should be fired for not getting vaccinated, just as you should be fired for not observing basic hygiene or for muddling up people's medication.

The same goes for hospitals.

If you refuse the vaccine, that makes you a medical ignoramus - and you are in the wrong job.

This narrative of yours about "marketing", "media bias" and "provaxxers" is all crap. Nursing homes and hospital are places where medical science is practised. People who reject medical science have no business working there.

I wish they did it another way. Firing people on the spot like that (me, I would have resigned) could have left some people without a home. I wish there was another way they could have done it.

I disagree with being forced to take something under pressure but I am sure there are other ways to do so that won't get people to lose their jobs. The policy is one thing but the attitude behind it, goodness gracious.

 

[ecco]

Educate is one thing, convince is another.
Here's What Will Actually Convince People to Get Vaccinated

Education:
Unvaccinated people get sick and die from Covid
Vaccinated people do not get sick and die from Covid

What more do you need?

Unvaccinated people get COVID. The more people who get Covid, the better the chances it will mutate into something worse. The more people who get vaccinated reduces the chances of the virus mutating. We have already seen that the latest mutation is more infectious and deadlier.

What more do you need?

There is a precedent for vaccinating everyone. A child can't get into school without proof of smallpox or polio vaccine. Measures like these are in place because a civilized society recognizes that it is right to inconvenience a few when that is needed to protect the general population.

Do you really need more education? Really?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Education:
Unvaccinated people get sick and die from Covid
Vaccinated people do not get sick and die from Covid

What more do you need?

Unvaccinated people get COVID. The more people who get Covid, the better the chances it will mutate into something worse. The more people who get vaccinated reduces the chances of the virus mutating. We have already seen that the latest mutation is more infectious and deadlier.

What more do you need?

There is a precedent for vaccinating everyone. A child can't get into school without proof of smallpox or polio vaccine. Measures like these are in place because a civilized society recognizes that it is right to inconvenience a few when that is needed to protect the general population.

Do you really need more education? Really?

The reply compared convincing vs educating.

Same information. You can repeat it again and again.

How its done is what differentiates the two.

--

Also, reposting facts doesn't change anything. Some people actually read the facts, discern if its best for them and their situation, health, and so forth, and decide based on those same facts not to take the vaccine.

So, if you're trying to convince me (I don't know what you're doing) you'd have to bring another point other than appeal to ignorance.

 

[ecco]

Take a break. You're working yourself up over this and you don't even know me.

Nonsense. I know a lot about your mindset when it comes to covid vaccinations. There is a whole thread of your comments.

I'm not sure how repeating it has anything to do with the original convo. I knew this since people bashed the unvaccinated on RF from the get-go.

You say you have known and yet you choose to ignore. That's not very logical, is it?

That's fine to you. What are you trying to prove here?

I never said your position was bad or ignorant or anything like that.

I never ever argued against your opinion.

Edit. I never ever argued against your facts.

You can't argue against my facts because they're not my facts. They are facts. Period.

But you still refuse to say why you won't get vaccinated. Well, other than you choose to ignore the facts because you don't like to be coerced. Oh, well.

Sarcasm and insults.

Ecco. Cut it.

Pointing out that you refuse to state why you won't get vaccinated, is not being insulting or sarcastic.
Pointing out that you apparently won't get vaccinated because you don't like to be coerced, is not being insulting or sarcastic.
Pointing out that you brstle at coercion to the point of discarding facts from your decision making, is not being insulting or sarcastic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nonsense. I know a lot about your mindset when it comes to covid vaccinations. There is a whole thread of your comments.

Take a break or pause from the discussion. Maybe get some coffee or watch a television show.

You say you have known and yet you choose to ignore. That's not very logical, is it?

Assumptions aren't facts.

You can't argue against my facts because they're not my facts. They are facts. Period.

But you still refuse to say why you won't get vaccinated. Well, other than you choose to ignore the facts because you don't like to be coerced. Oh, well.

I will not argue against facts (yours?)

You answered it for me and I just repeated...here it is again.

You

Your basic argument is you don't get vaccinated because you don't like being coerced. That's not much of an argument. If that is not your argument, then, I ask you again to articulate it.

Me (267)

Yes. That's one reason but not the main one. Coercion sends red flags. It's not just the COVID vaccine. I never took vaccines other than grade school.

Pointing out that you refuse to state why you won't get vaccinated, is not being insulting or sarcastic.
Pointing out that you apparently won't get vaccinated because you don't like to be coerced, is not being insulting or sarcastic.
Pointing out that you brstle at coercion to the point of discarding facts from your decision making, is not being insulting or sarcastic.

Look up.

It is sarcastic. Sarcasm has to do with how you say something-your choice in words, the pattern, and emotionalism.

You can say anything sarcastically. Here, it's not warranted.

 

[Suave]

I find it kind of distressing how people and media tend to blow something out of proportion that is part and parcel of literally any kind of medication. Of course legally approved medication is required to list possible risks and side effects; that doesn't mean the medication is going to be dangerous to most people.

Aspirine can cause internal bleeding, heart problems, and excruciating pain among a small fraction of people, and that's a drug most people buy on a regular basis in drug stores or supermarkets; by all accounts I have perused so far, most COVID vaccines carry fewer risks than some of those readily available everyday drugs.

All medication has risks - but so does not medicating, and letting a disease take its course; in the case of COVID, those risks include actually dying a painful death, or suffering debilitating long term effects, possibly for the rest of one's life, with a much higher probability than even the least safe vaccines we have so far.

Per CDC data, C.O.V.I.D.-19 infected persons age 5-17 have a 99.999 percent survival rate from having been infected by SARS-Cov2. Cases, Data, and Surveillance
Cases, Data, and Surveillance

In California so far, 5.5 percent of the population there are children ages 12 to 17 who have been vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19.
Vaccination progress data - Coronavirus COVID-19 Response

(Edited) **Assuming 10 percent of Americans** are persons ages 16 to 24 who have so far been fully vaccinated, I figure that'd be about 32 million C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated persons ages 16 to 24.

"During today’s meeting, members of a CDC advisory committee acknowledged 1,200 cases of heart inflammation in 16- to 24-year-olds, and said mRNA COVID vaccines should carry a warning statement — but physicians and other public commenters accused the CDC of exaggerating the risk to young people of COVID, and minimizing the risk of the vaccines."

CDC finds ‘likely’ link between heart inflammation and Pfizer, Moderna COVID vaccines

I figure 1,200 cases of heart inflammation out of (Edited) **32 million** mRNA fully C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated persons, who are ages 16 through age 24, means there could be up to a nearly (Edited) **1 in 30,000 chance** for each person in this age group to get heart inflammation caused by his/her mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccination..

 

[Kooky]

@Suave
I appreciate the numbers, but you are comparing the wrong cohorts for this (5-17 vs 16-24)

 

[Suave]

@Suave
I appreciate the numbers, but you are comparing the wrong cohorts for this (5-17 vs 16-24)

C.D.C.'s data regarding preliminary Estimated COVID-19 Cumulative Incidence, by age group — United States, February 2020-March 2021, C.D.C.'s data regarding risk for COVID-19 Infection, Hospitalization, and Death By Age Group, and California's vaccination progress data by age group has age group 5-17 and age group 18-49; there is no age group 16-24, which is the age group being widely reported as having over 1,200 heart inflammation cases among mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated persons

 

[metis]

It's bad timing and at the same time provaxxers really disregarding what experts took quite seriously-with the side affects and it being experimental (what they know and still knowing-quotes the CDC). All that, policies, of course, and yes media and political coercion makes it seem like "oh, they just don't like the policies" but it's more "leave or else."

The two have different contextual implications to it. So, I wouldn't blame them (if you kinda see from both perspectives). My thing is I hope they won't end up homeless or family issues or whatever over this mess. "I told you so..." really doesn't help and its a double standard when on one hand provaxxers care about the dying but they say it's their fault with the living.

I honestly can't see how a person being a provaxxer relieve him of seeing faults on both sides. It doesn't mean they have to give up their opinions to see how both sides are not victims. More so confirmation bias than it is objectivity.

I was mostly dealing with the law on this, but I've become more convinced because of the effects of the vaccine over time and testing, both positive & negative, that it is logical and even moral that some companies and services would be wise in mandating the vaccines.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I find it kind of distressing how people and media tend to blow something out of proportion that is part and parcel of literally any kind of medication. Of course legally approved medication is required to list possible risks and side effects; that doesn't mean the medication is going to be dangerous to most people.

Aspirine can cause internal bleeding, heart problems, and excruciating pain among a small fraction of people, and that's a drug most people buy on a regular basis in drug stores or supermarkets; by all accounts I have perused so far, most COVID vaccines carry fewer risks than some of those readily available everyday drugs.

All medication has risks - but so does not medicating, and letting a disease take its course; in the case of COVID, those risks include actually dying a painful death, or suffering debilitating long term effects, possibly for the rest of one's life, with a much higher probability than even the least safe vaccines we have so far.

It does. The context is...it's experimental, they're still learning, people are getting side effects, the push to vaccinate the whole world literally.

Other meds don't get that type of attention and there are reviews of meds that don't work. There are commercials that literally promote a med but legally list all the side effects in small letters to side effects worse than the illness it treats.

They don't do that with COVID vaccines. Why. Because they want people to get it not push people away.

I'm glad CDC and experts are taking aide effects seriously. I'd hate to be the one to say I told you so if they can admit one day a vaccine Did affect a person and he died without underplaying it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also, @Kooky, now I think if it, to do so would cause panic

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was mostly dealing with the law on this, but I've become more convinced because of the effects of the vaccine over time and testing, both positive & negative, that it is logical and even moral that some companies and services would be wise in mandating the vaccines.

I'm honestly concerned on what this push has done to a lot of people I know and people I care about. Seeing our economy fall and businesses here close. I'm concerned about proven aide effects and povaxxers negativity.

People Could get the virus unvaccinated. They are at risk too just they didn't lower it relative to the vaccinated.

But I'm more concerned about the consequences of all this. I know businesses can only do but so much. Legally, I get the change in policy. Ethically? I don't believe it is in this context.

 

[metis]

But I'm more concerned about the consequences of all this. I know businesses can only do but so much. Legally, I get the change in policy. Ethically? I don't believe it is in this context.

I go mostly by the science and then work from there.

If we don't do a good job suppressing this virus, which has shown a great ability to mutate, we could find ourselves right back to square #1 like when this thing exploded last year. The Delta variant is significantly easier to spread and is more deadly, and who knows which new variants down the road may evolve into something that may never be able to be stopped that could maybe kill millions or, heaven-forbid, possibly even billions. Look how many variants we've already seen, and I don't think we're done yet with new ones popping up.

 

[pearl]

There is already talk of another round, booster shots because of the expected Delta variant. I think people will be more positive about vaccination once the FDA has given a final ok to the vaccines that are now only lave emergency approval. I question the value of my own vaccination since it was the J&J. All reports seem to acknowledge another spike coming with this variant among those not vaccinated.

 

[McBell]

I think people will be more positive about vaccination once the FDA has given a final ok to the vaccines that are now only lave emergency approval.

I don't.
Those who are using the EAU status as an excuse are merely jumping on it as an excuse to not vaccinated.
Even after the vaccine gets FDA approval, they will not get vaccinated and will have another excuse to not get the vaccine.

 

[metis]

There is already talk of another round, booster shots because of the expected Delta variant.

Pfizer announced that it is already preparing for the possibility that a booster vaccine that some virologists think is more than just a "possibility".

BTW, as a personal note, the Pfizer vaccine here in the States is made in Portage, Michigan, which is a suburb of Kalamazoo where I had attended Western Michigan University as an undergrad. Back then it was "Upjohn" and was the largest maker of vitamins in the U.S. I watched live on local news when the first shipment of the vaccine came out of the factory, and I admit I had tears in my eyes, and for more than just one reason. Needless to say, I wanted that vaccine and was able to get it. After getting the 2nd shot, what a relief!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is already talk of another round, booster shots because of the expected Delta variant. I think people will be more positive about vaccination once the FDA has given a final ok to the vaccines that are now only lave emergency approval. I question the value of my own vaccination since it was the J&J. All reports seem to acknowledge another spike coming with this variant among those not vaccinated.

That would put an end to it being experimental. I wonder if people put trust in the FDA. I never looked it up or head anyone questioned it.

 

[pearl]

Even after the vaccine gets FDA approval, they will not get vaccinated and will have another excuse to not get the vaccine.

You are probably right, unfortunately.

 

[pearl]

I don't.

I agree.

 

[pearl]

That would put an end to it being experimental. I wonder if people put trust in the FDA. I never looked it up or head anyone questioned it.

I think until the last few years its had a good, trusted reputation, maybe now its back again.