Mandatory reporting laws vs. Confession

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A recent case has brought attention again to the way that, in many places, priests in the confessional are exempt from the laws that require people in positions of authority (doctors, teachers, etc.) to report child abuse when they learn of it:

http://deadstate.org/louisiana-supr...-to-report-evidence-of-child-abuse-to-police/

What's your position on this and why?

Personally, I don't see why priest-penitent privilege should be any stronger than doctor-patient privilege (which doesn't shield doctors from mandatory reporting laws).

Thoughts?

 

[bobhikes]

There is an agreement between the priest and the layman that the conversation is only with them and God. The only thing similar is the lawyer client agreement. Even if the lawyer knows you committed the crime, he can be removed from the bar if he doesn't defend you properly.

If the confessional agreement is broken people simply won't confess. They only go to try and get absolution.

The priest can not grant absolution unless they come clean. Meaning admit what they did and stop doing it and ask forgiveness from the victim.

If a person goes to a priest they are obviously feeling guilt the priest may actually push them to come clean. Doing away with the confessional they may continue to do it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I agree. The difference in law seems to relate to holdover conceps of protection and not to minimising of harm. the victim of thr abuse appears exposed

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is an agreement between the priest and the layman that the conversation is only with them and God.

What's the justification for others to honour this agreement? Generally, when there's an agreement between two people to conceal a crime, the law doesn't care (or may consider the person concealing the crime guilty of a crime themselves).

The only thing similar is the lawyer client agreement. Even if the lawyer knows you committed the crime, he can be removed from the bar if he doesn't defend you properly.

A few things:

- there are other similar arrangements. Doctor-patient privilege, for instance.

- you're confusing different concepts. The defense lawyer's duty to provide a proper defense is different from his or her duty of confidentiality.

- even lawyer-client confidentiality isn't absolute. There are circumstances when a lawyer is allowed to breach the confidentiality of a client... generally to prevent a severe violent crime.

If the confessional agreement is broken people simply won't confess. They only go to try and get absolution.

Some people, maybe. Most? Probably not. The police and the courts don't care about most sins.

Keep in mind that we're talking specifically about mandatory reporting of child abuse. I don't see how this would affect the reluctance of anyone to confess besides people who might mention child abuse in the course of their confession.

The priest can not grant absolution unless they come clean. Meaning admit what they did and stop doing it and ask forgiveness from the victim.

Yes: to a certain extent, it would compromise how confession works... just as mandatory reporting by doctors means that some patients might hold information back from their physicians... but is this cost so high that it justifies foregoing the benefits that would come with mandatory reporting?

In the case of physicians, we as a society say that the societal benefits of the law outweigh the cost. What's so different in the case of priests?

If a person goes to a priest they are obviously feeling guilt the priest may actually push them to come clean. Doing away with the confessional they may continue to do it.

In the article I linked to, the priest found out about the abuse during the confession of the victim. He also - according to reports - told the girl to "sweep it under the rug" and not to report the abuse.

 

[bobhikes]

First off, A doctor and a teacher discover abuse. It may be told to them in confidence but for the most part the person is coming for help and to help them it may be necessary to get others involved.

Second there are bad people in every profession and just because you make it illegal to not reveal whats said in the confessional does not mean it will be revealed. Unless you put cameras and speakers in there it is up to the priest.

Third you make the case for child abuse but priest are also told about murders, stealing, beating, cheating and etc. Do you only care about child abuse or do we need a list of what they should disclose and what they shouldn't disclose.

4th Not that many people actually confess child abuse. Not that many people confess at all.

 

[Aštra’el]

I am pleased that priests would be allowed to ensure the confidentiality of their discussions during confession. Culturally, there is an established level of trust and respect there that often provides a significant opportunity for the repentance, deliverance, and deep spiritual growth of troubled and contrite individuals and overall helps far many more people in the grand scheme of things.

 

[SomeRandom]

It is one thing to champion for professional help for child abusers. Counselling, mental health assessments, medical things etc. That I can get behind.

But in each and every confession of child abuse, that inherently involves (at some point in time) a child being ****ing abused! I'm sorry my priority is always going to be to protect the child, not anyone who wishes to confess.

This type of special protection is specifically banned in laws in many countries because of the ramifications not reporting to the authorities had on the abused to begin with.
Spiritual absolution is no excuse for essentially protecting child abusers or murderers or rapists or even that otherwise nice guy who parked in a handicapped space once, despite not being handicapped, because they were in a hurry.

Religion should not ever come before the safety of the greater public.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think clergy should be held to the same standards as other mandated reporters: keep it confidential unless it involves something you HAVE to report anyway (to the proper authorities, not just blast it on Twitter or something).

 

[bobhikes]

Another slight problem. Confessionals are anonymous. You don't indicate name, age or address. The boxes are dark with a screen between the priest and confessor. You start with Bless me father for I have sinned it has been ______ time since my last confession. So you would have to make a lot of changes to how people confess to even start collecting data.

 

[SomeRandom]

Another slight problem. Confessionals are anonymous. You don't indicate name, age or address. The boxes are dark with a screen between the priest and confessor. You start with Bless me father for I have sinned it has been ______ time since my last confession. So you would have to make a lot of changes to how people confess to even start collecting data.

In most countries it's legally obligated for anyone in any institution to report a crime or a suspicion of crime. Including priests. Hell I don't think confessionals are exempted in other states of the US even! Not a single one collects data for confessionals, so I don't know why you think there'd be an overhaul to the confessional process. This is already law without taking away anonymity of confessionals. Has been for decades.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Another slight problem. Confessionals are anonymous. You don't indicate name, age or address. The boxes are dark with a screen between the priest and confessor. You start with Bless me father for I have sinned it has been ______ time since my last confession. So you would have to make a lot of changes to how people confess to even start collecting data.

- Confession isn't anonymous in many denominations.

- Confessionals aren't magic. I'm sure that priests can often tell who is talking to them.

- Someone confessing to their priest outside the confessional still has legal protection.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

- Confession isn't anonymous in many denominations.

- Confessionals aren't magic. I'm sure that priests can often tell who is talking to them.

- Someone confessing to their priest outside the confessional still has legal protection.

Not every country gives legal protection to the confessional.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not every country gives legal protection to the confessional.

And we're talking about the ones that do.

 

[bobhikes]

- Confession isn't anonymous in many denominations.

- Confessionals aren't magic. I'm sure that priests can often tell who is talking to them.

- Someone confessing to their priest outside the confessional still has legal protection.

As a catholic I can tell you from personal experience no you can't. The box is dark and there is only a 10 X 10 screen you talk through. Also as a catholic I make it a habit of going to churches I don't attend for confession because I don't want my priests to know my day to day failings. You are right the confessional is not just a box. The priest has a procedure to do and then you have a procedure to do and then make the confession, it can and is done face to face, on death beds in hospitals. When done face to face or at a hospital death bed you can probably get more information.

I am curious as to what denominations ask for Id's before confession or Full Names and Addresses. Catholics don't and I would find it odd for any denomination to do so as you are asking for redemption from God and God knows who you are and what you did. The priest or minister is just the go between.

 

[bobhikes]

In most countries it's legally obligated for anyone in any institution to report a crime or a suspicion of crime. Including priests. Hell I don't think confessionals are exempted in other states of the US even! Not a single one collects data for confessionals, so I don't know why you think there'd be an overhaul to the confessional process. This is already law without taking away anonymity of confessionals. Has been for decades.

Wikipedia, but its the same on several sights.
In United States law, confessional privilege is a rule of evidence that forbids the inquiry into the content or even existence of certain communications between clergy and church members.

It grows out of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, the common law, and statutory enactments which may vary between jurisdictions.

 

[SomeRandom]

Wikipedia, but its the same on several sights.
In United States law, confessional privilege is a rule of evidence that forbids the inquiry into the content or even existence of certain communications between clergy and church members.

It grows out of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, the common law, and statutory enactments which may vary between jurisdictions.

Oh well my mistake. I'm not familiar with American law.
Still, other countries do not have this in law and do not keep data on any confession.

 

[arthra]

A recent case has brought attention again to the way that, in many places, priests in the confessional are exempt from the laws that require people in positions of authority (doctors, teachers, etc.) to report child abuse when they learn of it:

http://deadstate.org/louisiana-supr...-to-report-evidence-of-child-abuse-to-police/

What's your position on this and why?

Personally, I don't see why priest-penitent privilege should be any stronger than doctor-patient privilege (which doesn't shield doctors from mandatory reporting laws).

Thoughts?

Among Baha'i communities reporting abuse is mandatory:

"If an Assembly is handling a case in which the state has exclusive interest (such as child abuse, sexual molestation, battering, severe neglect, etc.), it must be careful not to interfere with the established legal procedures. For example, most states require all suspected cases of child abuse to be reported to the civil authorities. In those states, Bahá'í institutions would be legally required to report all such cases to the appropriate social service agencies."

(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Among Baha'i communities reporting abuse is mandatory:

"If an Assembly is handling a case in which the state has exclusive interest (such as child abuse, sexual molestation, battering, severe neglect, etc.), it must be careful not to interfere with the established legal procedures. For example, most states require all suspected cases of child abuse to be reported to the civil authorities. In those states, Bahá'í institutions would be legally required to report all such cases to the appropriate social service agencies."

(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)

It kind of sidesteps the question to say that you'll obey the law, since I'm talking about the cases where it's currently legal to not report abuse and asking if the law should be changed.

 

[arthra]

It kind of sidesteps the question to say that you'll obey the law, since I'm talking about the cases where it's currently legal to not report abuse and asking if the law should be changed.

Well of course we Baha'is have no clergy or rite of confession... but the Spiritual Assembly is our elected body that could deal with issues such as abuse... We would work with the local authorities on such cases..

Here's another advisory on the issue of child abuse:

"It is difficult to imagine a more reprehensible perversion of human conduct than the sexual abuse of children, which finds its most debased form in incest. . . . A parent who is aware that the marriage partner is subjecting a child to such sexual abuse should not remain silent, but must take all necessary measures, with the assistance of the Spiritual Assembly or civil authorities if necessary, to bring about an immediate cessation of such grossly immoral behavior, and to promote healing and therapy."

Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated January 24, 1993, to an individual believer

(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)

 

[McBell]

In the article I linked to, the priest found out about the abuse during the confession of the victim. He also - according to reports - told the girl to "sweep it under the rug" and not to report the abuse.

It is my opinion the second a priest, or anyone else for that matter, tells the victim to forget it happened, they become an accessory to the crime.