Mandatory Logic

[SigurdReginson]

Should logic be made into a required subject of studies in public schools? Why, or why not?

That is all.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes, though I think it should be a broader subject: logic, argument, identifying fallacy (not important to know fancy latin names, just identifying fallacy), identifying cognitive biases

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, though I think it should be a broader subject: logic, argument, identifying fallacy (not important to know fancy latin names, just identifying fallacy), identifying cognitive biases

^^^ this ^^^

 

[SigurdReginson]

Yes, though I think it should be a broader subject: logic, argument, identifying fallacy (not important to know fancy latin names, just identifying fallacy), identifying cognitive biases

I definitely agree!

Why do you think these aren't taught in public schools now? It seems like a valuable thing for kids to know.

 

[Meow Mix]

I definitely agree!

Why do you think these aren't taught in public schools now? It seems like a valuable thing for kids to know.

I’ve wondered that myself. Many schools seem more geared to teach children what to think rather than how to think.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I’ve wondered that myself. Many schools seem more geared to teach children what to think rather than how to think.

All in all, we are all just bricks in the wall.

 

[Secret Chief]

Does the state want thinkers? Could be dangerous. Better to create worrkers..

 

[SigurdReginson]

Does the state want thinkers? Could be dangerous. Better to create worrkers..

"Governments don't want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation."

-George Carlin

 

[Secret Chief]

"Governments don't want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation."

-George Carlin

He's right, whoever he is

 

[Viker]

We need to cram critical thinking down all the little throats out there.

 

[SigurdReginson]

He's right, whoever he is

For those who don't actually know who George Carlin is, here you go. Just be warned - he's got a filthy mouth.

 

[Viker]

I'm excited about this thread. I've been crying for years to get critical thinking and logic in early education.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Governments don't want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation."

-George Carlin

No, he did not say government. That is a misquote. The actual quote is entirely different.
Here is the full quote (and, per proper Carlin, it doesn't easily fit into a soundbite)

“But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education sucks, and it’s the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That's against their interests. That's right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table to figure out how badly they’re getting ****ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 ****ing years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ****tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you, sooner or later, 'cause they own this ****ing place. It's a big club, and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in the big club. And by the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head in their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted folks. The game is rigged, and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people -- white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on -- good honest hard-working people continue -- these are people of modest means -- continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a **** about them. They don’t give a **** about you. They don’t give a **** about you. They don't care about you at all -- at all -- at all. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on; the fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that's being jammed up their ******** everyday. Because the owners of this country know the truth: it's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Should logic be made into a required subject of studies in public schools? Why, or why not?

That is all.

What about philosophy in general?

 

[SigurdReginson]

No, he did not say government. That is a misquote. The actual quote is entirely different.
Here is the full quote (and, per proper Carlin, it doesn't easily fit into a soundbite)

Thank you. I just pulled it up online from some rando website.

 

[SigurdReginson]

What about philosophy in general?

How much do you want to cram into the minds of kids? We could just keep adding subjects if we wanted to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank you. I just pulled it up online from some rando website.

That's not necessarily good practice with Carlin. He gets misquoted A LOT (probably about as often as Nietzsche). This particular one, if I recall correctly sprouted up around the time of the height of the Tea Party.
And he is right. Groups like ALEC do push for crappier standards in education. Lobbying to promote standardized testing and test the hell out of kids with them is detrimental for us as a society because it prioritizes selecting the correct answer and not actually processing, evaluating, and using information. We could be doing so much better, but America keeps falling behind in STEM related subjects. Doesn't have to be, but we have a narrative of lazy and overpaid teachers, that leaving the masses behind while those who can get to private schools is acceptable, we think math is generally useless, we are scared of science, and all we really need to know how to do to make society as we have it turn is just how to press buttons.

 

[Heyo]

Should logic be made into a required subject of studies in public schools? Why, or why not?

That is all.

I was taught critical thinking in school, but it wasn't formal, more on the side of other subjects. I think it would be useful to have at least an introduction to formal logic as a dedicated subject. If done right (and that is a big if) other subjects can build on that and it would not be additional material but extracted and formalized from other subjects.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I was taught critical thinking in school, but it wasn't formal, more on the side of other subjects. I think it would be useful to have at least an introduction to formal logic as a dedicated subject. If done right (and that is a big if) other subjects can build on that and it would not be additional material but extracted and formalized from other subjects.

Making standardized testing a rarity, along with math curriculum on par with the rest of the world would go a long ways in helping to achieve that.

 

[Heyo]

Making standardized testing a rarity, along with math curriculum on par with the rest of the world would go a long ways in helping to achieve that.

Standardized testing has its merits, it's the standards that have to change. (I.e. testing for factual knowledge is widely overrated, the test should check for procedural knowledge. But they are harder to formulate and to judge.)