Man to Man... or Woman

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm thinking more like, God made us and if He forbids you from "becoming a female/male" or from having homosexual sex or from dressing in the manner of the opposite sex, He knows best why He commands so, so there is no need to go ask homosexuals and transgender people how they feel. It doesn't affect God's commands as we have them.

Homosexuality was a brief example of how the bible's definition and medical definitions of sexual orientation are different. I don't think most christians will "get it" unless they ask.

The transgender point of view is that they are not becoming male or female. They "are" male or female. Something with the psychology and physiologically (they are still studying but I found more about it) is for lack of heavily better words mixed up in the womb. Since they were young (so it wasn't a choice) each person testimonies to similar feelings, actions, and opinions that conformed to that of the opposite sex. If you look into the medical condition gender dysphoria it explains it more medically.

The bible doesn't speak of people who have a male body but their hormones (so have you) are highly aligned with the opposite sex. I'm not sure how the Hebrews, Greeks, etc felt about the situation. It's not our (US) culture so it's hard to judge.

To tell you honestly, I don't know what it means to "feel like" a female. However, just because I am the majority and do not have that disconnection between my body and mind doesn't make it immoral. I'm just ignorant of it. We shouldn't use our ignorance to justify why something is morally right or wrong; but we do. I just find the bible (Quran,Torah, Bahai scripture, etc) are a poor criteria for it.

 

[Tambourine]

I understand this is what some people think - "It does not affect me negatively, in any way or form."
Do you agree this is a subjective opinion, that is not necessarily true?

No, I have conclusively verified that I am not, in fact, being harmed by the existence of transgender people.

In what way has the existence of transgender people hurt you, personally?

 

[ppp]

I'm thinking more like, God made us and if He forbids you from "becoming a female/male" or from having homosexual sex or from dressing in the manner of the opposite sex, He knows best why He commands so, so there is no need to go ask homosexuals and transgender people how they feel. It doesn't affect God's commands as we have them.

Why should we care what God says? If there were a god, why would what he wants even be a consideration in such matters? Because he made us? That is not compelling. Because he has some other morality? Who cares? I am a human. I care about human morality. I certainly don't care about the morality of other species.

 

[Piculet]

I am a human. I care about human morality.

What is human morality?

 

[ppp]

What is human morality?

I don't see that defining human morality matters to the position that God's morality is irrelevant.
If you disagree, you can follow my conversation from a few hours ago where I outlined it.

 

[PearlSeeker]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?
I was not able to view this video, but the facial structure of the person in the video image just got me thinking on this.
Your thoughts...

I don't believe in gender theory. We are born biological man or woman. Biological disorder (hermaphrodite) is extremely rare.

 

[metis]

I don't believe in gender theory. We are born biological man or woman. Biological disorder (hermaphrodite) is extremely rare.

The levels of testosterone v estrogen varies from person to person, and sometimes the majority hormone doesn't exactly match the "equipment".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't believe in gender theory. We are born biological man or woman. Biological disorder (hermaphrodite) is extremely rare.

I don't believe in "gender theory" (whatever that is, but I have an idea of what you're referring to), but transsexualism is a real medical condition. It's really about the brain rather than something abstract like feelings and gender.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The evidence you are expecting to find regarding one particular account - the exodus of Egypt - is a distraction - a strawman - if you will, and unreasonably picky, considering all the other evidence, including the Israelites being in Egypt.

That's just one example. I can go on. Amd it's no strawman. Had one language been broken into multiple languages at one place and time, we'd see the evidence of it. But instead the evidence we have suggests most of today's languages sprouted from a few languages that developed independently of each other.

As regard the stories disproved by historical evidence, I challenge you to name the story and the historical evidence disproving it. I

The flood, as there is no evidence to suggest a global flood, not all animals can survive the Middle East climate, and the ark wouldn't have been sea worthy and would have been far too small (per Biblical accounts describing the ark).

Why one would think the Bible must be a science and medical textbook is befuddling to me.

Many do. You yourself even did cite a Bible verse when discussing how physics works. The Bible will not and cannot teach science.

Uh.... No.
However, if you are saying it is okay to jump to conclusions when it comes to science, because such explanations involve things that we can make claims about, since they involve physical things we see around us, that's just another preference, or orientation, imo.

Science doesnt jump to conclusions and I have never suggested otherwise. Amd what I said was factually accurate.

 

[nPeace]

I was asking "But regarding my question, how does this weaken the argument that some people do benefit from transitioning and other people do not? (655)" and you asked if I had received the answer or not (656).

If I remember, you said to Rival that many people who say they are transgender get surgery and then they decide to detransition.

Are you sure you can trust that memory of yours?

My memory is shot.

Can I help? So you don't continue repeating this.
What I said...

Spoiler

Why do you think desistance has a higher occurrence, and why do you think the following is the case?
Direct, formal research of detransition is lacking. Professional interest in the phenomenon has been met with contention. Detransitioners (persons who detransition) have similarly experienced controversy and struggle.
Detransition is commonly associated with transition regret...

Apparently the majority of persons with these "feelings" regret the most "prized medical treatment". What are your thoughts on that?

A 2003 German study found evidence for an increase in the number of demands for detransition, blaming poor practice on the part of "well-meaning but certainly not unproblematic" clinicians who — contrary to international best practices — assumed that transitioning as quickly as possible should be the only correct course of action. Surgeon Miroslav Djordjevic and psychotherapist James Caspian have reported that demand for surgical reversal of the physical effects of medical transition has been on the rise.

I'm not sure why you firmly believe this is a counter argument. It doesn't even have that look to it, imo.

The majority of time, though, do not detransition since surgery is meant to medically relieve symptoms of an illness rather than something someone just chooses just because. I mean, to some extent I like the way I look but who would just go and take off their breasts and reset themselves just because of a "feeling." Doctors would Not go with that unless there is an underlining illness behind it. That. And it would be heavily expensive. It's not a moral issue but a medical one. People who transition do have better mental and physical lives. I read you mentioned feelings aren't enough (shortened). People have feelings because of the things they experience. For example, chronic depression is high among transgender. Without transition (and yes there are other options-that doesn't weaken that some benefit from some options than others) they'd be more at risk of suicide etc.

This is not factual.
Can you provide the data that shows 1) "The majority of time, though, do not detransition since surgery is meant to medically relieve symptoms of an illness rather than something someone just chooses just because..." and 2) "People who transition do have better mental and physical lives." ?

 

[nPeace]

Now maybe you disagree with it, but morality aside, what are the drawbacks (stats?) that outweigh the benefits in people who transition?

At this point I will be answering the question @Rival asked, which is what you want to know, also.
I'll also like to ask you both some questions, since answers may differ from person to person. They are important, I think, so please make sure to consider, and answer the questions in deep blue.
My thoughts will be in deep orange, and highlights will be in deep red.
Articles will be placed in blocks - e.g. ________ *********, and or spoilers (if they are long). An overview of main points will precede.

Question: What do you consider is a good reason for wanting to transition?
Begin _________________
NHS Treatment Gender dysphoria

Hormone therapy for adults
The aim of hormone therapy is to make you more comfortable with yourself, both in terms of physical appearance and how you feel.
The hormones usually need to be taken for the rest of your life, even if you have gender surgery.

[You wanted to know about drawbacks...]

Spoiler: Continue reading...

It's important to remember that hormone therapy is only one of the treatments for gender dysphoria. Others include voice therapy and psychological support. The decision to have hormone therapy will be taken after a discussion between you and your clinic team.
In general, people wanting masculinisation usually take testosterone and people after feminisation usually take oestrogen.

Both usually have the additional effect of suppressing the release of "unwanted" hormones from the testes or ovaries.
Whatever hormone therapy is used, it can take several months for hormone therapy to be effective, which can be frustrating.

It's also important to remember what it cannot change, such as your height or how wide or narrow your shoulders are.
The effectiveness of hormone therapy is also limited by factors unique to the individual (such as genetic factors) that cannot be overcome simply by adjusting the dose.

Risks of hormone therapy
There is some uncertainty about the risks of long-term cross-sex hormone treatment. The clinic will discuss these with you and the importance of regular monitoring blood tests with your GP.
The most common risks or side effects include:
blood clots (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/blood-clots/)
gallstones (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/gallstones/)
weight gain
acne (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/acne/)
dyslipidaemia (abnormal levels of fat in the blood)
elevated liver enzymes
polycythaemia (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/polycythaemia/) (high concentration of
red blood cells)
hair loss or balding (androgenic alopecia)
There are other risks if you're taking hormones bought over the internet or from unregulated sources. It's strongly recommended you avoid these.
Long-term cross-sex hormone treatment may also lead, eventually, to infertility, even if treatment is stopped.

*********************************** End
True, some people go to great lengths to feel comfortable, like having plastic surgery etc, and they are willing to take the risks and discomforts involved. Of course this is a personal choice.
Is it worth it? Each person will answer that at the end of the day. The future will tell, was it worth it.
For some, the answer is No.

I suppose the question then becomes, Is it necessary?
I believe Rival mentioned why they thought it necessary, but why do you think transitioning is a necessary "treatment"?

The following data is important, in relation to the above question.
Begin _________________________
ICD-10
Changes have been proposed based on advances in research and clinical practice, and major shifts in social attitudes and in relevant policies, laws, and human rights standards.

Sex, gender and gender identity: a re-evaluation of the evidence
Despite gender dysphoria no longer falling within the remit of mental illness in ICD-11, there is a substantial body of evidence of increased levels of mental illness among adults, usually attributed to societal responses to gender non-conformity or ‘minority stress’. De Vries et al measured psychiatric comorbidity among those referred to a child and adolescent gender clinic in The Netherlands and also found increased rates of depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation in this younger group. However, a potentially worrying picture regarding causes and consequences emerges from more recent research in this young, increasingly natal-female population.

The RCPsych's position statement acknowledges these elevated rates of mental illness within the transgender population, but appears to attribute them primarily to hostile external responses to those not adhering to gender norms (or sex-specific stereotypes). A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’. Although mental illness is overrepresented in the trans population it is important to note that gender non-conformity itself is not a mental illness or disorder. As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

Suicide, self-harm and current controversies
Transgender support groups have emphasised the risk of suicide. After controlling for coexisting mental health problems, studies show an increased risk of suicidal behaviour and self-harm in the transgender population, although underlying causality has not been convincingly demonstrated. Then, expressed in the maxim ‘better a live daughter than a dead son’, parents, teachers and doctors are encouraged to affirm unquestioningly the alternative gender for fear of the implied consequences. There is a danger that poor-quality data are being used to support gender affirmation and transition without the strength of evidence that would normally determine pathways of care. One 20-year Swedish longitudinal cohort study showed persisting high levels of psychiatric morbidity, suicidal acts and completed suicide many years after medical transition. These results are not reassuring and might suggest that more complex intrapsychic conflicts remain, unresolved by living as the opposite sex.

Clinical implications
It is unclear what the role of psychiatry is in the assessment and treatment of gender dysphoria, now that it is no longer considered a diagnosable mental illness, and whether there is still a place for a routine psychosocial assessment. It could be argued that patients should be deterred from gender intervention pathways while comorbid mental illness is treated (Fig. 5). Without long-term follow-up data, it is not possible to identify those who might reconcile with their sex and those who might come to deeply regret their medical and/or surgical transition. Moreover, it is not transparent where ultimate and legal responsibility for decision-making lies – with the patient, parents (if the patient is a child), psychologist, endocrinologist, surgeon or psychiatrist.
*********************************** End
While some may claim that transitioning is a necessary treatment, is there any scientific data which says it is.
Though WHO and others may adjust to fit changing times, and societies, and to accommodate """"all"""", is there general agreement on any particular "treatment" being necessary.

Begin ____________________
Article - Gender Identity Diagnoses : History and Controversies
Abstract
This chapter begins with a review of psychiatric and medical theorizing about transsexualism and transgender presentations since the nineteenth century. Until the middle of the twentieth century, with rare exceptions, transgender presentranssexualism and sex reassignment surgery became more common and more available, leading to greater popular, medical, and psychiatric awareness of the concepts of gender identity and recognition of an increasing number of people wishing to “cross over” from their birth-assigned sex to another. In the twentyfirst century, international expert guidelines support transition in carefully evaluated individuals, although the healthcare systems in only a minority of countries now cover needed medical services for sex reassignment.
This chapter then goes on to review the shifting placement of gender identity and gender role diagnoses over time within both the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) International Statistical Classifi cation of Diseases (ICD) and the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). In recent years, gender identity diagnoses of both the ICD and DSM have generated several controversies, reflecting not only differing perspectives of mental health professions from those of transgender advocacy groups but also differences of opinion within the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community (LGBT) itself.
********************************* End
I'm sure though, there will be information out there which will present these recommendations as necessary, and there will be information saying otherwise.

Sorry I have to split this up, due to it surpassing limits.
Cont'.

 

[nPeace]

However, what is the harm if persons prefer to have this choice of "health care"?
Is it really caring for one's health?
Sex, gender and gender identity: a re-evaluation of the evidence
Begin _________________________________________________________
Preliminary data from a small ‘before and after’ pilot study of the use of puberty blockers at the Tavistock Centre in selected children found a reduction in body image problems in adolescents following a year of puberty suppression. However, positive effects were offset by increases in self-harm and suicidal thoughts. Surprisingly, this unpublished study was deemed a success such that prescribing of puberty blockers was introduced as standard practice and commissioned with scaling up of services. There was no development of alternative psychological approaches, nor were randomised controlled comparisons made.

Evidence suggests that almost 100% of children commencing puberty blockade go on to receive cross-sex hormones. This requires further interrogation to ascertain whether the high figures are due to robust, effective selection and gatekeeping or to a less palatable interpretation that preventing physical and sexual maturation crystallises gender dysphoria as a first step on a cascade of interventions. The GIDS remains under intense scrutiny regarding research criticisms. Although in the early 2000s it was criticised for being too conservative and not offering puberty blockers, there appears to have been a volte-face made in response to external pressure, without the publishing of robust data showing that this intervention is effective and safe.

Puberty blockers are known to affect bone and, possibly, brain development. They put users at risk of developing osteoporosis and are associated with reductions in expected IQ. They are described as ‘buying time’ for adolescents to make up their mind about whether to proceed with transition. Long-term effects are not known, but infertility appears inevitable when cross-sex hormones are introduced shortly after puberty blockers. Loss of sexual maturation will also be associated with lack of adult sexual function, although it is unlikely that a pre-pubertal child can truly understand this side-effect at the time of consent.
********************************************************************************** End
Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment

Apparently, there is information contrary to this, so I cannot speak with any surety, on harm in this regard, but ... if the many objections against puberty blockers is true, then I would consider harm is being done to many children.

Of interest...
NHS quietly U-turns on its guidelines for controversial puberty-blocking drugs for transgender teens which could have long-term effects on brains, bones and mental health
FDA: Thousands of Deaths Linked to Puberty Blockers

Aside from this potential... or alleged problem to children's health... there is this...
Growing Pains Problems with Puberty Suppression in Treating Gender Dysphoria
Begin _________________________________________________
There is strikingly little scientific understanding of important questions underlying the debates over gender identity — for instance, there is very little scientific evidence explaining why some people identify as the opposite sex, or why childhood expressions of cross-gender identification persist for some individuals and not for others. Yet notwithstanding the limited data, physicians and mental health care providers have arrived at a number of methods for treating children, adolescents, and adults with gender dysphoria.
Of particular concern is the management of gender dysphoria in children. Young people with gender dysphoria constitute a singularly vulnerable population, one that experiences high rates of depression, self-harm, and even suicide. Moreover, children are not fully capable of understanding what it means to be a man or a woman. Most children with gender identity problems eventually come to accept the gender associated with their sex and stop identifying as the opposite sex. There is some evidence, however, that gender dysphoria and cross-gender identification become more persistent if they last into adolescence
In one prominent treatment approach, called “gender-affirming,” the therapist accepts, rather than challenges, the patient’s self-understanding as being the opposite sex. Gender-affirming models of treatment are sometimes applied even to very young children. Often, the gender-affirming approach is followed in later youth and adulthood by hormonal and surgical interventions intended to make patients’ appearances align more closely with their gender identity than their biological sex. In order to improve the success of the physical changes, interventions at younger ages are increasingly being recommended.

(We should remember that it is parents or guardians, not children themselves, who make decisions about medical care.) However, the medical treatments provided for children with apparent symptoms of gender dysphoria, including affirmation of gender expression from the earliest evidence of cross-gender behaviors, may drive some children to persist in identifying as transgender when they might otherwise have, as they grow older, found their gender to be aligned with their sex. Gender identity for children is elastic (that is, it can change over time) and plastic (that is, it can be shaped by forces like parental approval and social conditions). If the increasing use of gender-affirming care does cause children to persist with their identification as the opposite sex, then many children who would otherwise not need ongoing medical treatment would be exposed to hormonal and surgical interventions.
******************************************************************************* End
Caring for... or harming the children in the long run... or early in life?
It is a known fact that children are affected emotionally and psychologically by the incresing problems in society.
There are a number of obvious factors, which are often ignored, and hand waved away. One of these is The Consequences of Single Parent Homes (Fatherless).

There is a father absence crisis in America.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 19.7 million children, more than 1 in 4, live without a father in the home. Consequently, there is a father factor in nearly all social ills facing America today.
While the answer may be a simple one, it may be dismissed in a world with changed and changing values. However, this was prophesied centuries ago.
To the Christian, this is expected.
What values really work?

@Rival, I'll like to take you back... you likely will remember some of these given.
Elk mentioned premeditated gender fraud
Recall, they said, "f they want to do it within the confines of their own homes, they should be permitted but only if they are prepared to be restricted to their own homes to prevent a fraud on society."

Although one may believe, or convince themselves that it is not fraud, because they claim that you are only accepting what you already are, this is their subjective opinion, which may be a presumption accepted by some, but not all.

What's wrong with that?
When someone is not able to identify someone (they can't even identify themselves), they may believe that that person is being deceitful, and using fraud to take advantage of them - even if it is not intentional. They might feel betrayed, cheated, and humiliated.
This is evident by the following...

June 20, 2020
Chicago teen allegedly killed woman, 37, after learning she was transgender

December 18, 2019
Man accused of strangling 17-year-old in Clark County after learning she was transgender

2018 could be one of the deadliest years for the trans community. According to the Human Rights Campaign, 22 trans people have been killed this year.
Why Is New York's Trans Community Facing Increased Violence? | HuffPost Reports

July 24, 2017
Man sentenced for stabbing date 119 times after learning she was trans

When trans go out, and live among the public, and blend, they are to some people, apparently, walking around with fake id deceiving the public for their own advantage.

A prostitute who assumes a gender identity of female, is not going to be seen by all, as female, but to many they will be identified by their assigned gender... if it is known.
I suspect many trans will (if they are not already doing so) eventually hide their original assigned identity, as they realize how some react at learning the truth.

What would you call that? Was anyone harmed?
To be continued...

 

[nPeace]

Also, do you take into account transgenders point of view?

Of course.
I take into consideration everyone's point of view - even rapists.
If I didn't, I wouldn't be listening to you, and responding.

When doctors treat patients they don't just go to the books but also talk with the patients they see.

Yes, but some, don't check you out. They take what you say, and determine if it is something that sounds familiar, or at least nearly similar to something they know of, and if it's not, they guess, and prescribe something they suggest might work.
Have you ever met any of these doctors?

The "weakened" argument? By definition, though, when you oppose the other person's statement it is usually a counter argument unless you two agree with each other.

...but you'd have to remind me where the dots are.

Not sure where you are at. Other than the point where you imagine and believe there was a counter argument by something you grabbed onto.

Wait. Perhaps you want that to be a counter argument, because you have something you want to counter it with.
If you have anything you are eager to share, don't mind the counterargument thing. Feel free to share.

"From what I read, they were saying that surgery treatment for dysphoria is a well worth treatment and option for many transgender. You mentioned there were failure rates. Assuming that's your counter argument, how does the failure rates (or lead to death?) of treatment weaken the argument that for many transgender, surgery is the best option for their mental health condition?" (656)

I don't mind you sharing that information at all. Please do. Where can I find that link?

What did you mean?

Failed rates?
Can you point me to that post.
I can't say offhand, as I am not sure what I said exactly.
I said quite a lot of things.

I do. I just caught some things you were talking to Rival about since it startled me.



We all have cultural biases, though. Using the bible as criteria for medical advice and morality is highly biased in itself.

Okay, you think people who read something in the Bible, which they consider to be practical advice, are displaying cultural bias.
That's interesting.

Brief example: take homosexuality. The bible does mention it but your bias towards sexual orientation doesn't come from medical books but from the bible. So, they are strictly different.

? Am I correct in saying that you have a cultural bias against the Bible?

Back to the topic: but since transgender isn't in the bible, I'm puzzled why it would be morally wrong to transition for medical reasons.

What if it were spelled out in the Bible in black and white, would you be any less puzzled.
To give an example, sexual immorality is mentioned in the Bible, in certain areas specifically identifying what exactly is wrong.
Does that stop people from asking, "So what's wrong if they love each other, if they aren't hurting anyone?" Or "So what's wrong with that...?"
The puzzlement doesn't varnish because it's written.

In fact, the apostle Peter said, "They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you." - 1 Peter 4:4
There is nowhere in the Bible that says, "Don't sit and watch pornography" either. Or, "Don't smoke cigars."
However, there are principles that guide virtuous living, and a principle is in fact greater than a rule, or law, since a principle is a fundamental truth, which does not change.

For example, principled love does not require rules telling one, 'Don't steal your neighbor's chicken."
However, as with every thing we do, we need guidance in doing things correctly, or right. This is where laws come in.

So for example, you may care about people, and you see someone ill, whom you want to help, but someone tells you, "No. If you want to help the person, you must do ABC."
Why the rule?
It is to protect you from falling ill, and maybe dying from the contagious disease the person has.
Oh. You say. I didn't know he had a life threatening contagious disease.
That's how laws work. Oftentimes, we just don't know.
How thankful we are when we get good directives.

Couple reasons such as transgender usually detransition seems to be one reason but I don't know how that can be a reason. I know you mentioned others but they probably weren't addressed to me.

That's not a reason involving morality..

This is odd. If you were a doctor and wanted to gain insight in what people with seizures go through to treat them, you'd ask the person who has seizures. Likewise with therapy and likewise with 99% of doctor/patient treatment.

I think your doctor gave you a wrong impression of what a doctor does. Or you probably just believe that...I don't know why.

Doctors listen to your complaint; ask leading question for more info; test you for symptoms.
They don't need you to diagnose your problem.
When you are unconscious what will they do? They won't wait until you wake up.

Likewise with lay people. If they want to be empathetic and understand other people, they need to get insight from their point of view not judge them based on ours. It's a huge tenant of empathy, compassion, and humility.

It is vitally important, I believe, to listen to people, to understand them.
The doctor who treats you, wants to know some specifics about you. One in particular... Do you suffer from allergies, or are you allergic to ABC.
They will pay careful attention, and note these things so that they don't kill you while trying to help you.
Listening to people is a trademark of my "community".

I haven't talked with anyone who doesn't share gaining insight from others will improve one's own point of view and relationship with others. Maybe (hopefully?) I'm reading you wrong?

Why do you think people will need to gain insight from that person? Why can't they have that insight already?

Are you reading me wrong?
Maybe. I think so.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is not factual.
Can you provide the data that shows 1) "The majority of time, though, do not detransition since surgery is meant to medically relieve symptoms of an illness rather than something someone just chooses just because..." and 2) "People who transition do have better mental and physical lives." ?

No. I can't give numbered data. All medical treatments by their nature are meant to relieve symptoms of illness.

People do have better lives when the And their doctors choose the treatments best for their mental and physical health. It's not a moral thing but medical.

But this does remind me of the psychopath comment. Do you only take data as validation and not people who suffered from this?

No doctor will ignore patients views and not take them accurate for appropriate treatment. Do you agree with them?

What other options are there that will help them physically, mentally, and be able to function in society without feeling they are not themselves?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

At this point I will be answering the question @Rival asked, which is what you want to know, also.
I'll also like to ask you both some questions, since answers may differ from person to person. They are important, I think, so please make sure to consider, and answer the questions in deep blue.
My thoughts will be in deep orange, and highlights will be in deep red.
Articles will be placed in blocks - e.g. ________ *********, and or spoilers (if they are long). An overview of main points will precede.

Question: What do you consider is a good reason for wanting to transition?
Begin _________________
NHS Treatment Gender dysphoria

Hormone therapy for adults
The aim of hormone therapy is to make you more comfortable with yourself, both in terms of physical appearance and how you feel.
The hormones usually need to be taken for the rest of your life, even if you have gender surgery.

[You wanted to know about drawbacks...]

Spoiler: Continue reading...

It's important to remember that hormone therapy is only one of the treatments for gender dysphoria. Others include voice therapy and psychological support. The decision to have hormone therapy will be taken after a discussion between you and your clinic team.
In general, people wanting masculinisation usually take testosterone and people after feminisation usually take oestrogen.

Both usually have the additional effect of suppressing the release of "unwanted" hormones from the testes or ovaries.
Whatever hormone therapy is used, it can take several months for hormone therapy to be effective, which can be frustrating.

It's also important to remember what it cannot change, such as your height or how wide or narrow your shoulders are.
The effectiveness of hormone therapy is also limited by factors unique to the individual (such as genetic factors) that cannot be overcome simply by adjusting the dose.

Risks of hormone therapy
There is some uncertainty about the risks of long-term cross-sex hormone treatment. The clinic will discuss these with you and the importance of regular monitoring blood tests with your GP.
The most common risks or side effects include:
blood clots (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/blood-clots/)
gallstones (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/gallstones/)
weight gain
acne (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/acne/)
dyslipidaemia (abnormal levels of fat in the blood)
elevated liver enzymes
polycythaemia (Link: www.nhs.uk/conditions/polycythaemia/) (high concentration of
red blood cells)
hair loss or balding (androgenic alopecia)
There are other risks if you're taking hormones bought over the internet or from unregulated sources. It's strongly recommended you avoid these.
Long-term cross-sex hormone treatment may also lead, eventually, to infertility, even if treatment is stopped.

*********************************** End
True, some people go to great lengths to feel comfortable, like having plastic surgery etc, and they are willing to take the risks and discomforts involved. Of course this is a personal choice.
Is it worth it? Each person will answer that at the end of the day. The future will tell, was it worth it.
For some, the answer is No.

I suppose the question then becomes, Is it necessary?
I believe Rival mentioned why they thought it necessary, but why do you think transitioning is a necessary "treatment"?

The following data is important, in relation to the above question.
Begin _________________________
ICD-10
Changes have been proposed based on advances in research and clinical practice, and major shifts in social attitudes and in relevant policies, laws, and human rights standards.

Sex, gender and gender identity: a re-evaluation of the evidence
Despite gender dysphoria no longer falling within the remit of mental illness in ICD-11, there is a substantial body of evidence of increased levels of mental illness among adults, usually attributed to societal responses to gender non-conformity or ‘minority stress’. De Vries et al measured psychiatric comorbidity among those referred to a child and adolescent gender clinic in The Netherlands and also found increased rates of depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation in this younger group. However, a potentially worrying picture regarding causes and consequences emerges from more recent research in this young, increasingly natal-female population.

The RCPsych's position statement acknowledges these elevated rates of mental illness within the transgender population, but appears to attribute them primarily to hostile external responses to those not adhering to gender norms (or sex-specific stereotypes). A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’. Although mental illness is overrepresented in the trans population it is important to note that gender non-conformity itself is not a mental illness or disorder. As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

Suicide, self-harm and current controversies
Transgender support groups have emphasised the risk of suicide. After controlling for coexisting mental health problems, studies show an increased risk of suicidal behaviour and self-harm in the transgender population, although underlying causality has not been convincingly demonstrated. Then, expressed in the maxim ‘better a live daughter than a dead son’, parents, teachers and doctors are encouraged to affirm unquestioningly the alternative gender for fear of the implied consequences. There is a danger that poor-quality data are being used to support gender affirmation and transition without the strength of evidence that would normally determine pathways of care. One 20-year Swedish longitudinal cohort study showed persisting high levels of psychiatric morbidity, suicidal acts and completed suicide many years after medical transition. These results are not reassuring and might suggest that more complex intrapsychic conflicts remain, unresolved by living as the opposite sex.

Clinical implications
It is unclear what the role of psychiatry is in the assessment and treatment of gender dysphoria, now that it is no longer considered a diagnosable mental illness, and whether there is still a place for a routine psychosocial assessment. It could be argued that patients should be deterred from gender intervention pathways while comorbid mental illness is treated (Fig. 5). Without long-term follow-up data, it is not possible to identify those who might reconcile with their sex and those who might come to deeply regret their medical and/or surgical transition. Moreover, it is not transparent where ultimate and legal responsibility for decision-making lies – with the patient, parents (if the patient is a child), psychologist, endocrinologist, surgeon or psychiatrist.
*********************************** End
While some may claim that transitioning is a necessary treatment, is there any scientific data which says it is.
Though WHO and others may adjust to fit changing times, and societies, and to accommodate """"all"""", is there general agreement on any particular "treatment" being necessary.

Begin ____________________
Article - Gender Identity Diagnoses : History and Controversies
Abstract
This chapter begins with a review of psychiatric and medical theorizing about transsexualism and transgender presentations since the nineteenth century. Until the middle of the twentieth century, with rare exceptions, transgender presentranssexualism and sex reassignment surgery became more common and more available, leading to greater popular, medical, and psychiatric awareness of the concepts of gender identity and recognition of an increasing number of people wishing to “cross over” from their birth-assigned sex to another. In the twentyfirst century, international expert guidelines support transition in carefully evaluated individuals, although the healthcare systems in only a minority of countries now cover needed medical services for sex reassignment.
This chapter then goes on to review the shifting placement of gender identity and gender role diagnoses over time within both the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) International Statistical Classifi cation of Diseases (ICD) and the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). In recent years, gender identity diagnoses of both the ICD and DSM have generated several controversies, reflecting not only differing perspectives of mental health professions from those of transgender advocacy groups but also differences of opinion within the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community (LGBT) itself.
********************************* End
I'm sure though, there will be information out there which will present these recommendations as necessary, and there will be information saying otherwise.

Sorry I have to split this up, due to it surpassing limits.
Cont'.

Hate those limits. I won't be able to address every point but it'll take me a min

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not sure why you firmly believe this is a counter argument. It doesn't even have that look to it, imo.

I don't think that was it. It was a reply to Rival about how many surgical treatments have not worked for transgender or many detransition. It was in the first few pages (assuming) in this thread.

As for memory. I usually pat myself on the back when I have good memory because I'm always told that I have bad memory. In one sense, I don't feel I do (well, by neuropsychological testing) just processing skills issues. Once the info makes its way there, there, it stuck. Transmission issues not retaining ones.

...but it doesn't excuse that detransitioning implies surgery isn't the best option for transgender. It just means each person has different options to relieve their symptoms. Like Rival (or Shadow?) said, each person is different and not all transition and can transition.

I'm still stuck on this "how is it wrong" thing in the back of my head. You mentioned data (with the comment above) that said many people detransition. Is that a counter argument of why it's wrong or not beneficial for transgender (assuming you're going by data only and not the people who experience it?)?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I haven't read your two long posts yet, so I don't know if you answered these statements till I read it.

Of course.
I take into consideration everyone's point of view - even rapists.
If I didn't, I wouldn't be listening to you, and responding.

I know this isn't what you meant, by why rapists as a comparison? just curious.

Listening means, though, not using bias to decipher what he or she says is true or mentally healthy.

Yes, but some, don't check you out. They take what you say, and determine if it is something that sounds familiar, or at least nearly similar to something they know of, and if it's not, they guess, and prescribe something they suggest might work.

Have you ever met any of these doctors?

That's a generalization. It doesn't matter if it's gender dysphoria, depression, cancer, or a swollen toe, doctors usually ask patients to ascertain appropriate treatment not just books.

I've met tons of doctors for my illness. The thing is, I don't see gender dysphoria and my neurological and other people's illnesses any different in regards to whether they need treatment or not. If it's detrimental to their physical, psychological, and emotional health doctors tend to not only look at the books but ask patients what they experience and both go through the best treatments to relieve and/or cure those symptoms and illnesses.

Not sure where you are at. Other than the point where you imagine and believe there was a counter argument by something you grabbed onto.

It was in reference to the other comment in the post of detransitioning data as a counter argument for Rival saying many people benefit from transitioning. Though Shadow said it wasn't appropriate for all, so I'd have to dig to find that statement. I honestly don't feel it's a memory thing. You may recall things I said that you can't find in a post but we take as is because of conversation. Trust in accuracy. It's not saying you're mislead or anything. It's just what I read from your post.

Wait. Perhaps you want that to be a counter argument, because you have something you want to counter it with.
If you have anything you are eager to share, don't mind the counterargument thing. Feel free to share

No. It's not a bad thing to have a counter argument (or stating a fact or opinion that may disagree or devalue the person's your speaking with). That's the nature of conversations like this. Unless you're indifferent or agree with the other person, of course there will be counter arguments both in formal debates (which is a criteria) and informal debates.

I don't mind you sharing that information at all. Please do. Where can I find that link?

It's in one of the first few pages. I'd have to dig it out but after so many pages, the points mix and match so its best to address what recall. I usually take your word for what I said unless it's something more of an insult than a statement or opinion.

Failed rates?
Can you point me to that post.
I can't say offhand, as I am not sure what I said exactly.
I said quite a lot of things

You are indeed getting mixed up, and moreover, it is leading you to ask me questions that are equivalent to.... "Um. What is grass to you? Do you know the difference between grass and trees?" (706)

This comment. Disregard the other quote.

There is nothing special about this question. It's not like the Bible, you know

Okay, you think people who read something in the Bible, which they consider to be practical advice, are displaying cultural bias.
That's interesting.

Of course. I'm certainty not fluent in Greek and Hebrew, I haven't lived their culture, and don't know their definitions and point of view. So, if I were christian and read the bible, I'd be going off my cultural bias (my subjective experience, interpretation etc) to derive truth that is totally personal not objective.

I'm not sure what homosexuality meant back then, for example. But we finally got a sense of it in the 1970s and finally today don't see it as an illness and don't arrest people for saying they are homosexuals.

In other words, yes, christians (and other religious) do go by cultural bias when they interpret their experiences, scriptures, Practice, whatever the case may be. It's not a bad thing just not when talking about any topic from the bible, it's best that one express it as opinion or belief (from me) not a statement of fact as many christians do the latter to prove their point of what the bible says about a given topic.

? Am I correct in saying that you have a cultural bias against the Bible?

Against the bible, no. I'm saying cultural bias influences christians interpretations of what they read in the bible and in other cases acts as a confirmation bias to topics we know more about today. I can't think of another less controversial example than homosexuality. Christians judge homosexuality by cultural biases in the bible not what we know of today. My issue isn't that, though, just the actions and consequences people have based on their views.

What if it were spelled out in the Bible in black and white, would you be any less puzzled.
To give an example, sexual immorality is mentioned in the Bible, in certain areas specifically identifying what exactly is wrong.
Does that stop people from asking, "So what's wrong if they love each other, if they aren't hurting anyone?" Or "So what's wrong with that...?"
The puzzlement doesn't varnish because it's written.

Sexual immorality or homosexuality was just an example, though. I know you disagree with the action but that isn't homosexuality. We know that now, but people who believe in the bible are still stuck on that word.

In fact, the apostle Peter said, "They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you." - 1 Peter 4:4
There is nowhere in the Bible that says, "Don't sit and watch pornography" either. Or, "Don't smoke cigars."
However, there are principles that guide virtuous living, and a principle is in fact greater than a rule, or law, since a principle is a fundamental truth, which does not change.

For example, principled love does not require rules telling one, 'Don't steal your neighbor's chicken."
However, as with every thing we do, we need guidance in doing things correctly, or right. This is where laws come in.

So for example, you may care about people, and you see someone ill, whom you want to help, but someone tells you, "No. If you want to help the person, you must do ABC."
Why the rule?
It is to protect you from falling ill, and maybe dying from the contagious disease the person has.
Oh. You say. I didn't know he had a life threatening contagious disease.
That's how laws work. Oftentimes, we just don't know.
How thankful we are when we get good directives.

Transgenderism isn't sexual immorality. How did you connect the two?

The last part about helping people you care about, what do you mean by that?

We're talking about gender dysphoria and surgical treatments to relieve those symptoms and how you feel the latter is wrong and (by another post) there were other options better than the surgery. I was wondering why was the surgery wrong and what other options are there that both doctor and patient would better benefit from.

That's not a reason involving morality..

I don't know if it was. The comment I replied to wasn't addressed to me.

I think your doctor gave you a wrong impression of what a doctor does. Or you probably just believe that...I don't know why.

Doctors listen to your complaint; ask leading question for more info; test you for symptoms.
They don't need you to diagnose your problem.
When you are unconscious what will they do? They won't wait until you wake up.

Gosh. Um. I've been in the hospital for going on 20 some odd years with various doctors who need to use what I say (and what my family and strangers etc say) to diagnose my illnesses. If I went to the doctor and said "doc. I'm falling out. Diagnose me" he'd say, what are your symptoms. Then he'd use his book or so have you (from what he is skilled) and cross reference if my symptoms also meets criteria for a said probable diagnosis. He would do tests, ask more questions, and order treatments and so have you.

I hope-truly hope-we're talking pass each other. Complaints are used for diagnosis. Without patients complaint of symptoms, diagnosis would be more fuzzy. I thought this was common knowledge.

It is vitally important, I believe, to listen to people, to understand them.
The doctor who treats you, wants to know some specifics about you. One in particular... Do you suffer from allergies, or are you allergic to ABC.
They will pay careful attention, and note these things so that they don't kill you while trying to help you.
Listening to people is a trademark of my "community".

Yes. This helps with diagnosis etc. I'm confused with this comment and your last one. Do you feel patients have some say in their diagnosis?

Gender dysphoria is an illness just as other mental and physical illnesses. So they go by the same "rules" for diagnosis and treatment as every other illness. Doctors do listen to patients complaints, use their own skills, and discover treatments that work best not just for the doctor's results from tests and observations but from the patients themselves.

Why do you think people will need to gain insight from that person? Why can't they have that insight already?

Are you reading me wrong?
Maybe. I think so.

Based on this question, if you haven't experienced an illness you can gain insight from outside perspective. For example, I don't know what it feels like to have gender dysphoria but I get a sense of it based on my knowledge and close personal experiences when finding out who I am both gender and sex as many kids do when they learn about themselves before being culturally conditioned to male/female cultural norms. So, I have some personal insight based on my personal bias but that's not the same as asking someone who has experienced these things all of their life rather than being a growing phase.

From what you're saying, it seems like you put more credence to doctors and data and not the patients complaints and opinions.

Still stuck with the psychopath thing. The idea was why ask someone who is mentally ill about their symptoms, if their symptoms may or may not be true. I never heard or read (or even heard testimony) that gender dysphoria is a delusion or an illness that leads them to think and believe in things they experience doesn't exist.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you sure you can trust that memory of yours?

Can I help? So you don't continue repeating this.
What I said...

Spoiler

Why do you think desistance has a higher occurrence, and why do you think the following is the case?
Direct, formal research of detransition is lacking. Professional interest in the phenomenon has been met with contention. Detransitioners (persons who detransition) have similarly experienced controversy and struggle.
Detransition is commonly associated with transition regret...

Apparently the majority of persons with these "feelings" regret the most "prized medical treatment". What are your thoughts on that?

A 2003 German study found evidence for an increase in the number of demands for detransition, blaming poor practice on the part of "well-meaning but certainly not unproblematic" clinicians who — contrary to international best practices — assumed that transitioning as quickly as possible should be the only correct course of action. Surgeon Miroslav Djordjevic and psychotherapist James Caspian have reported that demand for surgical reversal of the physical effects of medical transition has been on the rise.

I'm not sure why you firmly believe this is a counter argument. It doesn't even have that look to it, imo.


This is not factual.
Can you provide the data that shows 1) "The majority of time, though, do not detransition since surgery is meant to medically relieve symptoms of an illness rather than something someone just chooses just because..." and 2) "People who transition do have better mental and physical lives." ?

And as I pointed out to you, you have to take in the entirety of that Wiki article, but here you are cherry picking and posting what can support your position as lomg as we don't include the rest of the article. Like that article pointing out it's a very small amount who detransition. It's in there, but not the parts you're quoting.

I think your doctor gave you a wrong impression of what a doctor does. Or you probably just believe that...I don't know why.

No. They didn't. Ive helped several of my own previous healthcare providers in Indiana regarding transgender issues, who providers are in the area who specialize in it, and some general questions about it because I wasn't their only trans-patient.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here is a great source for info. It's backed by tons of research (all of which is cited) and it gives a decent picture of where studies into trans people really is lacking.
Standards of Care - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

 

[PearlSeeker]

The levels of testosterone v estrogen varies from person to person, and sometimes the majority hormone doesn't exactly match the "equipment".

Levels vary but there is no majority hormone. There are just normal levels for men and women.