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Featured Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures, it is given to the blind to have eyes to see and ears to hear and the lame to walk while those saying they see do not see. Those saying they hear do not hear and those saying they walk do not walk. This is because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. They that be whole do not need the physician but those that are sick seek him. Many do not know the meaning.

    Who can know the mind of God? As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways from your ways and so are my thoughts from your thoughts. But the Spirit of truth is given only to those that are poor. He is the teacher of all the poor in spirit, he knows them all by name because he reads the intent of the heart that is sick. Who can look into the mirror that God gives to see who they are? These are those the look into the mirror and see God. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them because in his mind they are foolishness. Now you say you see therefore your sin remains.

    Come let us reason together; Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Call upon me while I am near, tomorrow may be too late and why will you die when by my stripes you may be healed. With an everlasting love have I loved you and with loving kindness have I drawn you therefore why will you turn from me? It is hard to kick against the pricks.

    Do you know these scriptures dear clear? If so what do you think they mean?
     
  2. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    3rd Angel claimed : "The evidence your rejecting is includes..." (post #580)

    3rd Angel,

    The eighth commandment is “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” (Exodus 20:16)

    Why are you breaking the eight commandment in order to try to prove you live the 4th commandment better than other Christians?

    God condemns lying as well as other sins.

    IF you are trying to portray yourself as a “good Christian” than you are obligated to honor the truth and not bear false witness against your neighbor.


    Why do you think it is ok to intentionally deceive forum members by intentionally speaking falsehoods about another person?

    This is not just a credibility issue, but it raises other issues as well.
    For example, How can readers know you are not an athiest or non Christian who is simply trolling the forum in an attempt to make Christians look like obsessive compulsive people who are willing to lie and offer irrational and illogical arguments that are irrelevant to the point in an attempt to make christians "look bad"?

    Clear
    σιφυτζφιω
     
    #582 Clear, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    It depends if you believe and follow the bible or not and believe it is true. Why do you think God cannot make the heavens and earth in six days and rest on the seventh day when that is what the scriptures teach? If you believe Gods' Word is true of course the bible teaches a literal six day creation.

    In the HEBREW language in GENESIS 1 meaning for a day ....

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H3177
    DAY H3177 יום; yôm means; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next, or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (.. . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

    There is not one hint in GENESIS 1 and GENESIS 2 that says any of these scriptures are symbolic to 1000 years or anything else. Note also for each individual day within the creation week of GENESIS 1 it says "AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING" (A literal day) was the "FIRST DAY" *GENESIS 1:5; "SECOND DAY" *GENESIS 1:8; "THIRD DAY" *GENESIS 1:13; "FOUTH DAY" GENESIS 1:19; "FIFTH DAY" *GENESIS 1:23; "SIXTH DAY" *GENESIS 1:31.

    [5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY.
    [8], And God called the firmament Heaven. And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE SECOND DAY.
    [13], And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE THIRD DAY.
    [19], And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY.
    [23], And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIFTH DAY
    [31], And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE SIXTH DAY.

    ..................

    I believe that the scriptures teach that God separated the light and darkness on the first day which made up the evening and the morning and the first day

    GENESIS 1:3-6. [3], And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. [5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING (Light and Night being the day) WAS THE FIRST DAY.

    There was no firmaments, Sun and Moon ands stars of the heavens at this point and there was no world (earth) until after the third day (evening and morning time wise) *GENESIS 1:6-13.

    Once the world was created, God said, [14] "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and LET THEM BE FOR SIGNS AND FOR SEASONS AND FOR DAYS AND YEARS: [15], And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth: and it was so. [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17], And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth, [18], And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [19,] And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY *GENESIS 1:14-19.

    What I believe this means is exactly what the scripture says and that is God separated the LIGHT and the DARKNESS in an "EVENING and MORNING DAY ONE" *GENENSIS 1:3-5. God created the firmaments in an "EVENING AND MORNING DAY 2" *GENESIS 1:6-8, God created the earth in an "EVENING AND MORNING DAY 3" *GENESIS 1:9-13 and the reason God made the Sun and the moon was to help us to know time and that an EVENING and a MORNING make up a DAY.

    God said, [14] "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and LET THEM BE FOR SIGNS AND FOR SEASONS AND FOR DAYS AND YEARS: [15], And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth: and it was so. [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17], And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth, [18], And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [19,] And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY *GENESIS 1:14-19.

    The sun and the moon was given so that man could understand the times and what constitutes the evening and be morning, a day and the seasons. This proves that everything made before when God's Word quotes an "EVENING AND A MORNING" is in reference to a literal day time wise.

    As for me I simply believe Gods' Word. Are you another christian at this website that does not believe God's Word?
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, perhaps for you it very well maybe if that is what you believe. As for me I believe Gods' Word is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it *ROMANS 1:16; 1 CORINTHIANS 1:18; 1 CORINTHIANS 1:23-24; 1 CORINTHIANS 4:20; 2 CORINTHIANS 4:7; 1 PETER 1:5 . The same power that created the heavens and the earth and everything in them *GENESIS 1:1-31. According to the scriptures, those who do not believe God's Word have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof *2 TIMOTHY 3:5. If you believe Gods' Word it says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek word here meaing God breathed) *2 TIMOTHY 3:16. Without faith it is impossible to please God *HEBREWS 11:6. The natural man according to the scriptures do not understand these things neither can he know them *1 CORINTHIANS 2:14.
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really dear friend. I am simply sharing the scriptures with you in this thread. It seems you do not believe them. They are Gods' Word not my words and I believe and follow them and they are true. In response you provide your own words that are not God's Word but your words to deny God's Word and they are not true. According to the scriptures I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

    ROMANS 3:4 [4], ... let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

    ROMANS 2:1-6
    [1], Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are that judge: for wherein you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things.
    [2], But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
    [3], And think you this, O man, that judge them which do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God?
    [4], Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
    [5], But after your hardness and impenitent heart treasure up to yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    [6], Who will render to every man according to his deeds

    JOHN 7:24 [24] Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    ROMANS 2:5 [5] But after your hardness and impenitent heart treasure up to yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

    My dear friend, I do not judge you. I have only shared God's Word. It is God's Word not mine that you deny with your words that are your words and not God's. It is the Word of God that will be our judge come judgment day...

    JOHN 12:47-48
    [47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
    [48], He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    JOHN 3:34 [34] 34, For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure to him

    If we reject God's Word we reject the owner of them. May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring them does not make them disappear. They will be our judge come judgement day.

     
    #585 3rdAngel, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm a Christian who doesn't feed trolls.
     
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  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe according to the scriptures that Christians believe and follow God's Word they are God's sheep and they believe and follow him. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word are not his Sheep and because they do they follow.

    JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
    [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him who calls them in love to love another.
     
    #587 3rdAngel, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  8. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    3rd Angel,

    3rd angel claimed : " I am simply sharing the scriptures with you in this thread."
    No, bearing false witness is NOT "simply sharing the scriptures". Forum members are not stupid. They can read and discern.

    3rd Angel said : "I believe according to the scriptures that Christians believe and follow God's Word they are God's sheep".

    No, you do not believe this or you would follow Gods word by not breaking the 8th commandment against bearing false witness in order to prove you follow the 4th commandment "better" than other Christians. It is irrational to bear false witness, and then claim you follow the commmandments.

    It is VERY difficult to believe that a logical and rational Christian would lie so openly in order to prove their Christianity was superior to other Christians.


    The reason you lost the debate is that you could not prove what you claimed you could prove.

    Can you prove you are not simply trolling?
    Can you prove you are not trying to simply make Saturday sabbath keepers look prideful, and hypocritical?

    I admit that I simply skimmed over your last two posts for a logical response as to why you thought if was justifiable to break the 8th commandment. If you cannot justify your having broken the 8th commandment against bearing false witness in order to prove your Christianity is better than other Christians and you cannot prove you are not simply a troll and you cannot prove that you are not on the forum simply to make Saturday Sabbath keepers look prideful and hypocritical, then I suppose I, like other forum readers, have no interest in reading your posts. You lost credibility once you lost logic and rational thought and were willing to make false claims.

    Clear
    σιφυδρακω
     
    #588 Clear, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sharing God's Word is not trolling. It is Gods' Word not my words which are God's. I believe you ignore God's Word with your words which are not God's but yours because you seek to follow your traditions. For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. Many will not hear because they do not seek to follow, they have no lamp to light the way when the road is dark and narrow and fall into a dtich and lose their way.
     
  10. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    The 4th commandment is a part of the law - do you agree?

    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:24-25

    He blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, nailing it to his cross. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath. Colossians 2:14-16

    Paul clearly met on the first day of the week and preached unto them. Acts 20:7
     
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  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi dear friend. Welcome to this thread here. No one has ever said anywhere or believes that we are saved by the works of the law so Romans 3:28 is not relevant here. I believe Paul is saying in Romans 3:28 that we are not saved by the words of the law but we are saved by faith in Christ. That does not mean that God's law is abolished as Paul says in a few verses latter in ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law. Can you see that the interpretation of this scripture you have made is in error here
    Indeed. This is the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) which is to give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we knowingly break any one of them *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. You do know that God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments right?

    God's law defines what sin is *1 JOHN 3:4 which begin in the heart *MATTHEW 5. According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand condemned guilty before God "under the law"of breaking the whole law *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:19-20. Gods Law is our school master, our teacher that shows us our need of God's salvation. God's LAW shows us that we are all slaves of sin *ROMANS 3:9-18; ROMANS 7:1-24; ISAIAH 1:5-6; JEREMIAH 13:23 and leads us to the foot of the cross so we can call out to God in faith "Have mercy on me God for I am a sinner. It leads us to Christ that we can be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. It shows us that all we are all sick with sin and in need of a Physician for without many do not know the meaning of the Word of JESUS "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*MATTHEW 9:12-13.

    It is through God's law giving us a knowledge of our sins *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 that we see the love of God for us personally that he loved us so much that he sent His only begotten son (symbolic of Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac) into our world, the son of the God of heaven to die the death that we deserve to die on our behalf for our sins that whosoever believes His Words should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16-21.

    You see Gods' LAW is so essentially a part of the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST that it is through God's LAW that JESUS is revealed to the sinner as our only hope of God's salvation and allows us through faith to walk in God's presence (the Spirit) *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16

    Very simply....

    1. If there is no law there can be no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7
    2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Savior from our sins *MATTHEW 9:12-13
    3. If we have no Savior from our sins we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law *ROMANS 2:12

    It is this very letter of the law that leads us to the Spirit of the law written on the heart through faith to love and it is only through love that we can follow him who calls us to love another and love is the fulfilling and establsihing of the law in the heart of those who believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12; MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12.

    Do we make void the law of God through faith? No we establsih the law through faith *ROMANS 3:31
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4

    Whosoever is BORN of GOD to LOVE in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12 does not practice SIN (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:9; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 3:31; MATTHEW 22:36-40. This is the GOOD NEWS of the Gospels in the NEW COVENANT e have a SAVIOUR to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4.

    This includes Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath which is one of Gods' 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:8-11 that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 and as the scriptures teach if we knowingly break anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 when we have been given a knowledge of the truth *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *HEBREWS 10:26-26.

    May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.


    to be continued...
     
    #591 3rdAngel, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, although I believe you are making the same fatal mistake and following man made teachings and traditions if your applying this scripture to God's 4th commandment. Why do I say this dear friend? Did you know that there are many different types of sabbaths in the old testament that are not God's 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments? For example...

    1. The Sabbaths of the Feast of unleavened bread (first and last day) that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:6-8
    2. The Sabbath on the annual day of Atonement that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:27-32
    3. The Sabbath on the annual Feast of Trumpets that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:24-25?
    4. The Sabbath on the Feast of Booths that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:34-36
    5. Feast of first fruits (first and last day) that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:39
    6. The sabbaths (sabbaton plural) of holy convocations from the annual feast days *LEVITICUS 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36 that can fall on any days of the week
    7. The Sabbath of the land (7 year single cycle) *LEVITICUS 25:2
    8. The Sabbath of Jubilee - culminating of the 7x7 yearly cycles sabbaths *LEVITICUS 25:9-54
    9. Or God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandments that define sin when broken? *EXODUS 20:8-11 from GENESIS 2:1-3

    So what sabbaths is Paul talking about in Colossians 2:16 in your view and can you prove your view from the scriptures? I believe if your applying these scriptures to Gods' 4th commandment and knowingly breaking it you stand guilty before God of sin. Why do you say this? COLOSSIANS 2:16 is not talking about God's 4th Commandment. If you study the scriptures looking at the withing scripture and chapter context and look at the old testament scriptures that Paul is referring to you will see that Paul is referring to the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the feast days that were shadow laws in ordinances *HEBREWS 10:1-12 that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and the work of JESUS on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

    If your interested to see what COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 is referring to please look at the detailed scripture response to this topic in the links supplied below.

    1. here linked;

    2. here linked;
    3. here linked;
    4. here linked;
    5. here linked;

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed dear friend.

    to be continued...
     
    #592 3rdAngel, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, the disciples met every day of the week to share God's Word and to break bread *Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. That does not make every day of the week a Holy day of rest now does it? You do know dear friend that Paul as well as JESUS and all the Apostles and disciples kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath day as a holy day of rest according to God's 4th commandment right *Acts of the Apostles 13:14; Acts of the Apostles 13:27; Acts of the Apostles 13:44; Acts of the Apostles 15:21; Acts of the Apostles 16:13; Acts of the Apostles 17:2; Acts of the Apostles 18:4; Revelation 1:10.

    Just because the Apostles and disciples of JESUS met everyday of the week does not make every day of the week a holy day and one of God's commandments does it? Something to pray about dear friend. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. There is no scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. This is a man amde teaching and tradition handed down from the Roman Catholic Church. JESUS warns us about following these teachings in MATTHEW 15:2-9.

    According to the scriptures I believe if we knowingly break Gods' commandments when we have been given a knowledge of the truth it will keep you out of Gods' kingdom *Hebrews 10:26-27 but in times of ignorance when we sin and do not know it is sin God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of His truth calls all men everywhere to believe and follow his Word *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. God has his people in every Church *JOHN 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling his sheep (people) wherever they may be to come out from following man made techings and traditions back to the pure word of God. BABYLON the great mother of harlots has fallen. Who will go out and meet the bridegroom?

    Gods Sheep hear His voice (the Word of God). Those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.
     
    #593 3rdAngel, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe my point is that you haven't stoned anyone for committing adultery and I am quite sure God would not be happy with you if you did.
     
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  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe no-one is commanded to keep a Sunday or a Satruday sabbath. The sabbath day is the seventh day whichever day that happens to be.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I once told a pastor who claimed he knew Jesus in the Bible that he didn't really know Jesus because he didn't have a personal relationship with Him. I believe without the Holy Spirit a person is worshiping himself through God's word.
     
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  17. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    just an observation
    it would make it simpler to keep the long windedness for God and make it brief for man because these long explanations are tedious and repetitive and truly even God would not find it amusing or informative
     
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  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The section you highlighted where it says Gods Sheep hear His voice is and follow him is from the scriptures in JOHN 10:26-27. They are not my words. They means God's people believe his Word and do what God says.

    Hope this helps
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No need we are not living in the old covenant now according to the scriptures. The same practice of stoning people to death in the old covenant was not restricted to breaking God's 4th commandment but was also applied to most of God's 10 commandments. It was to teach God's people that the wages of sin is death to those who openly and knowingly break it and do not seek God's forgiveness. Nothing has changed today in the new covenant accept judgement is carried out at the 2nd coming.
     
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