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Featured Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry my friend the scriptures are not "claptrap" they are true *ROMANS 3:4 and God's Word given to mankind, but they are foolishness to those who do not believe and follow them *1 CORINTHIANS 2:14. According to the scriptures God's Word will be our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48. They bring eternal life to all those who believe and follow them and condemnation to those who do not *JOHN 3:15-21.
     
    #341 3rdAngel, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It’s not the scriptures that are claptrap; it’s your interpretation and use of them that is claptrap.

    According to The Story of Christianity, Vol. 1, Gonzalez, Justo L, Harper One, 1984, p.20ff, we find this:

    “The earliest Christians did not consider themselves followers of a new religion. Their faith was not a denial of Judaism, but was rather the conviction that the Messianic age had finally arrived. This was why Christians in Jerusalem continued keeping the Sabbath and attending worship at the Temple. To this they added the observance of the first day of the week, in which they gathered in celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus. [Emphasis mine] In that early church, authority was vested primarily on the Twelve. Of the apostles, Peter and John seem to have been foremost, for Acts gives several indications of this, and they are two of the ‘pillars’ to whom Paul refers in Gal. 2:9. The third such ‘pillar,’ however, was not one of the Twelve. He was James, the brother of the Lord. In A.D. 62 ... the brother of jesus [James] was killed... Soon thereafter, the leaders of the Christian community in Jerusalem decided to move to Pella, a city beyond the Jordan whose population was mostly Gentile.”

    Therefore, unless you’re willing to admit that Peter, James and John “went against the Bible,” you must admit that the institution of the observance of the first day of the week came by apostolic authority of those who knew Jesus and were taught by Jesus and were related to Jesus. And that this happened less than 10 years following the crucifixion of Jesus, before the gospels and Acts were were written.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Whooo my friend slow down I will get to the rest of this post shortly. If you claim that the scriptures are not "claptrap" then why do you not believe them when I have provided the scriptures in relation to your claims not being true that man made traditions and teachings supersede Gods' Word.

    You provided the words "claptrap" in response to post # 339 linked, which was totally unrelated to your response here which provided scripture proving that God's Word should be followed above the teachings and traditions of men *ACTS 5:29; MATTHEW 15:3-9.

    Your post here does not address anything in post # 339 linked, it ignores these scriptures that you called "claptrap" and simply starts talking about something totally unrelated to the post and scriptures you called "claptrap". If you want to ignore the scriptures in the linked post above and call them claptrap I will leave that between you and God and let my previous post stand as it is God's Word not mine so your argument is with him not me.

    ...........

    Now as to your unrelated response and claims in this post. According to the scriptures and the historical records, I believe, God's people all through time before and after JESUS and the Apostles and early disciples and Church all through time to this very present day have all kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures unbroken to this very present day. This is proven both biblically *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4 and on the historical records.

    There is no scriptural links to "THE LORDS DAY" being Sunday or the first day of the week. According to the scriptures "THE LORDS DAY" is referred to as the Sabbath day in MATTHEW 12:8. These scripture provided above which prove what I am sharing with you is also verified on the historical record from JESUS to all his disciples to this very present day

    Hope this helps :)
     
    #343 3rdAngel, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    As posted earlier the biblical record shows that the early Church worshipped God everyday *ACTS 2:46-47 and they kept the Sabbath according to God's 4th commandment as a "HOLY DAY" of rest *EXODUS 20:8-11. This is proven both biblically *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4 and on the historical records. God's people all through time before and after JESUS and the Apostles and early disciples and Church all through time to this very present day have all kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures unbroken to this very present day....

    Historical records confirming the biblical records....

    Sabbath Observance - The first Century A.D.

    JOSEPHUS
    "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

    PHILO
    Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

    So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.

    The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D.

    Sabbath Observance - The Second Century A.D.

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

    Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

    "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.

    to be continued...
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sabbath Observance - The Third Century A.D.

    EGYPT (OXYRHYNCHUS PAPYRUS) (200-250 A.D.)
    "Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).

    EARLY CHRISTIANS-C 3rd
    "Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

    AFRICA (ALEXANDRIA) ORIGEN
    "After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

    PALESTINE TO INDIA (CHURCH OF THE EAST)
    As early as A.D. 225 there existed large bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.

    INDIA (BUDDHIST CONTROVERSY), 220 A.D.)
    The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.

    EARLY CHRISTIANS
    "The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

    Sabbath Observance - The fourth Century A.D.

    ITALY AND EAST-C 4th
    "It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west...For in the Church of Millaine (Milan);...it seems the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme (Judaism); but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus (Jesus) Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." "History of the Sabbath" (original spelling retained), Part 2, par. 5, pp.73, 74. London: 1636. Dr. Heylyn.

    ORIENT AND MOST OF WORLD
    "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.

    ABYSSINIA
    "In the last half of that century St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.

    ARABIA, PERSIA, INDIA, CHINA
    "Mingana proves that in 370 A.D. Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbath keeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musacus, travelled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India and China." "Truth Triumphanat,"p.308 (Footnote 27).

    ITALY-MILAN
    "Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath" (1612)

    SPAIN-COUNCIL ELVIRA (A.D.305)
    Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spain at that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.

    SPAIN
    It is a point of further interest to note that in north-eastern Spain near the city of Barcelona is a city called Sabadell, in a district originaly inhabited. By a people called both "Valldenses" and Sabbatati."

    PERSIA-A.D. 335-375 (40 YEARS PERSECUTION UNDER SHAPUR II)
    The popular complaint against the Christians-"They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it." Truth Triumphant," p.170.

    PERSIA-A.D.335-375
    "They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

    COUNCIL LAODICEA-A.D.365
    "Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud." "Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6.

    Sabbath Observance - The fifth Century A.D.

    THE WORLD
    "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Allexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called "the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, "Ecclestical History," Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

    CONSTANTINOPLE
    "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19.

    THE WORLD-AUGUSTINE, BISHOP OF HIPPO (NORTH AFRICA)
    Augustine shows here that the Sabbath was observed in his day "in the greater part of the Christian world," and his testimony in this respect is all the more valuable because he himself was an earnest and consistent Sunday-keeper. See "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," 1st Series, Vol.1, pp. 353, 354.

    POPE INNOCENT (402-417)
    Pope Sylvester (314-335) was the first to order the churches to fast on Saturday, and Pope Innocent (402-417) made it a binding law in the churches that obeyed him, (In order to bring the Sabbath into disfavour.) "Innocentius did ordain the Saturday or Sabbath to be always fasted." Dr. Peter Heylyn, "History of the Sabbath, Part 2, p. 44.

    THROUGH THE FIFTH CENTURY A.D.
    Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church. "Ancient Christianity Exemplified," Lyman Coleman, ch. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.

    In Jerome's day (420 A.D.) the devoutest Christians did ordinary work on Sunday. "Treatise of the Sabbath Day," by Dr. White, Lord Bishop of Ely, p. 219.

    FRANCE
    "Wherefore, except Vespers and Nocturns, there are no public services among them in the day except on Saturday (Sabbath) and Sunday." John Cassian, A French monk, "Institutes," Book 3, ch. 2.

    AFRICA
    "Augustine deplored the fact that in two neighbouring churches in Africa one observes the seventh-day Sabbath, another fasted on it." Dr. Peter Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath." p. 416.

    SPAIN (400 A.D.)
    "Ambrose sanctified the seventh day as the Sabbath (as he himself says). Ambrose had great influence in Spain, which was also observing the Saturday Sabbath." Truth Triumphant, p. 68.

    SIDONIUS (SPEAKING OF KING THEODORIC OF THE GOTHS, A.D. 454-526)
    "It is a fact that it was formerly the custom in the East to keep the Sabbath in the same manner as the Lord's day and to hold sacred assemblies: while on the other hand, the people of the West, contending for the Lord's day have neglected the celebration of the Sabbath." "Apollinaries Sidonli Epistolae," lib.1, 2; Migne, 57.

    CHURCH OF THE EAST
    "Mingana proves that in 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council,-stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musacus,-attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metrop olitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day."

    EGYPT
    "There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries." Sozomen. "Ecclesiastical History Book 7, ch. 119

    to be continued...
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sabbath Observance - The sixth Century A.D.

    SCOTTISH CHURCH
    "In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." W.T. Skene, "Adamnan Llife of St. Columbs" 1874, p.96.

    SCOTLAND, IRELAND
    "We seem to see here an allusion to the custom, observed in the early monastic Church of Ireland, of keeping the day of rest on Saturday, or the Sabbath." "History of the Catholic Church in Scotland," Vol.1, p. 86, by Catholic histsorian Bellesheim.

    SCOTLAND-COLULMBA
    "Having continued his labours in Scotland thirty-four years, he clearly and openly foretold his death, and on Saturday, the month of June, said to his disciple Diermit: "This day is calleld the Sabbath, that is the rest day, and such will it truly be to me; for it will put an end to my labours.'" "Butler's Lives of the Saints," Vol.1, A.D. 597, art. "St. Columba" p. 762

    COLUMBA (RE DR. BUTLER'S DESCRIPTION OF HIS DEATH)
    The editor of the best biography of Colulmba says in a footnote: "Our Saturday. The custom to call the Lord's day Sabbath did not commence until a thousand years later." Adamnan's "Life of Columba" (Dublin, 1857), p. 230.

    Sabbath Observance - The Seventh Century A.D.

    SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
    Professor James C. Moffatt, D.D., Professor of Church History at Princeton, says: It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of week." "The Church in Scotland," p.140.

    SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
    "The Celts used a Latin Bible unlike the Vulgate (R.C.) and kept Saturday as a day of rest, with special religious services on Sunday." Flick, "The Rise of Mediaeval Church," p. 237

    ROME
    Gregory I (A.D. 590-640) wrote against "Roman citizens (who) forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day." "Nicene and Post- Nicene Fathers," Second Series, Vol, XIII, p.13, epist. 1

    ROME (POPE GREGORY I,A.D.590 TO 604)
    "Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles, b.13:1

    ROME (POPE GREGORY I)
    Declared that when anti-Christ should come he would keep Saturday as the Sabbath. "Epistles of Gregory I, "b 13, epist.1. found in "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers."

    "Moreover, this same Pope Gregory had issued an official pronouncement against a section of the city of Rome itself because the Christian believers there rested and worshipped on the Sabbath." "Epistles of Gregory I, "b 13, epist.1. found in "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers."

    Sabbath Observance - The Eigth Century A.D.

    COUNCIL OF FRIAUL, ITALY-A.D. 791 (CANON 13)
    "We command all Christians to observe the Lord's day to be held not in honour of the past Sabbath, but on account of that holy night of the first of the week called the Lord's day. When speaking of that Sabbath which the Jews observe, the last day of the week, and which also our peasants observe.." Mansi, 13, 851

    PERSIA AND MESOPOTAMIA
    "The hills of Persia and the valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates reechoed their songs of praise. They reaped their harvests and paid their tithes. They repaired to their churches on the Sabbath day for the worship of God." "Realencyclopaedie fur Protestatische and Krche," art. "Nestorianer"; also Yule, "The Book of ser Marco Polo," Vol.2, p.409.

    INDIA, CHINA, PERSIA, ETC
    "Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and the Armenians," Schaff-Herzog, The New Enclopadia of Religious Knowledge," art. "Nestorians"; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche," art. "Nestorianer."

    COUNCIL OF LIFTINAE, BELGIUM-A.D.745 (ATTENDED BY BONIFACE)
    "The third allocution of this council warns against the observance of the Sabbath, referring to the decree of the council of Laodicea." Dr. Hefele, Counciliengfesch, 3, 512, sec. 362

    CHINA-A.D.781
    In A.D. 781 the famous China Monument was inscribed in marble to tell of the growth of Christianity in China at that time. The inscription, consisting of 763 words, was unearthed in 1625 near the city of Changan and now stands in the "Forest of Tablets," Changan. The following extract from the stone shows that the Sabbath was observed:

    "On the seventh day we offer sacrifices, after having purified our hearts, and received absolution for our sins. This religion, so perfect and so excellent, is difficult to name, but it enlightens darkness by its brilliant precepts." Christianity in China, M. I'Abbe Huc, Vol. I, ch.2, pp. 48, 49

    Sabbath Observance - The Ninth Century A.D.

    BULGARIA
    "Bulgaria in the early season of its evangelization had been taught that no work should be performed on the Sabbath." Responsa Nicolai Papae I and Con-Consulta Bulllllgarorum, Responsum 10, found in Mansi, Sacrorum Concilorum Nova et Amplissima Colectio, Vol.15; p. 406; also Hefele, Conciliengeschicte, Vol.4, sec. 478

    BULGARIA
    (Pope Nicholas I, in answer to letter from Bogaris, ruling prince of Bulgaria.) "Ques. 6-Bathing is allowed on Sunday. Ques. 10-One is to cease from work on Sunday, but not also on the Sabbath." Hefele, 4,346- 352, sec. 478

    The Bulgarians had been accustomed to rest on the Sabbath. Pope Nicholas writes against this practice.

    CONSTANTINOPLE
    (Photuus, Patriarch of Constantinople {in counter- synod that deposed Nicolas}, thus accused Papacy). Against the canons, they induced the Bulgarians to fast on the Sabbath." Photius, vonKard, Hergenrother, 1, 643

    Note: The Papacy had always tried to bring the seventh-day Sabbath into disrepute by insisting that all should fast on that day. In this manner (she sought to turn people towards Sunday, the first day, the day that Rome had adopted.

    ATHINGIANS
    Cardinal Hergenrother says that they stood in intimate relation with Emperor Michael II (821-829) and testifies that they observed the Sabbath. Kirchengeschichte, 1, 527

    INDIA, ABYSSINIA
    "Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India. It was also maintained by the Abyssinians.

    BULGARIA
    "Pope Nicholas I, in the ninth century, sent the ruling prince of Bulgaria a long document saying in it that one is to cease from work on Sunday, but not on the Sabbath. The head of the Greek Church, offended at the interference of the Papacy, declared the Pope ex-communicated." Truth Triumphant, p. 232

    Sabbath Observance - The Tenth Century A.D.

    SCOTLAND
    "They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a Sabbatical manner." A history of Scotland from the Roman Occupation, Vol. I, p.96. Andrew Lang

    CHURCH OF THE EAST-Kurdistan
    "The Nestorians eat no pork and keep the Sabbath. They believe in neither auricular confession nor purgatory." Schaff-Herzog, "The New Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge," art. "Nestorians."

    WALDENSES
    "And because they observed no other day of rest but the Sabbath days, they called them Insabathas, as much as to say, as they observed no Sabbath." Luther's "Fore-Runners" (original spelling), PP. 7, 8

    WALDENSES
    Roman Catholic writers try to evade the apostolic origin of the Waldenses, so as to make it appear that the Roman is the only apostolic church, and that all others are later novelties. And for this reason they try to make out that the Waldenses originated with Peter Waldo of the twelfth century. Dr. Peter Allix says:

    "Some Protestants, on this occasion, have fallen into the snare that was set for them...It is absolutely false, that these churches were ever found by Peter Waldo...it is a pure forgery." Ancient Church of Piedmont, pp.192, Oxford: 1821

    WALDENSES
    "It is not true, that Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: they wewre called Waldenses, or Vaudes, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt." "Id., p. 182

    WALDENSES
    On the other hand, he "was called Valdus, or Waldo, because he received his religious notions from the inhabitants of the valleys." History of the Christian Church, William Jones, Vol II, p.2

    To be continued...
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sabbath Observance - The Eleventh Century A.D.

    SCOTLAND
    They held that Saturday was properly the Sabbath on which they abstained from work. "Celtic Scotland," Vol. 2, p. 350
    SCOTLAND
    "They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a sabbatical manner...These things Margaret abolished." A History of Scotland from the Roman Occupation," Vol.1, p. 96.

    SCOTLAND
    "It was another custom of theirs to neglect the reverence due to the Lord's day, by devoting themselves to every kind of worldly business upon it, just as they did upon other days. That this was contrary to the law, she (Queen Margaret) proved to them as well by reason as by authority. 'Let us venerate the Lord's day,' said she, 'because of the resurrection of our Lord, which happened upon that day, and let us no longer do servile works upon it; bearing in mind that upon this day we were redeemed from the slavery of the devil. The blessed Pope Gregory affirms the same.'" Life of Saint Margaret, Turgot, p. 49 (British Museum Library)

    SCOTLAND
    (Historian Skene commenting upon the work of Queen Margaret) "Her next point was that they did not duly reverence the Lord's day, but in this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early Church of Ireland, by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." Skene, "Celtic Scotland," Vol.2, p. 349

    SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
    "T. Ratcliffe Barnett, in his book on the fervent Catholic queen of Scotland who in 1060 was first to attempt the ruin of Columba's brethren, writes: 'In this matter the Scots had perhaps kept up the traditional usage of the ancient Irish Church which observed Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of rest.'" Barnett, "Margaret of Scotland: Queen and Saint," p.97

    COUNCIL OF CLERMONT
    "During the first crusade, Pope Urban II decreed at the council of Clermont (A.D.1095) that the Sabbath be set aside in honour of the Virgin Mary." History of the Sabbath, p.672

    CONSTANTINOPLE
    "Because you observe the Sabbath with the Jews and the Lord's Day with us, you seem to imitate with such observance the sect of Nazarenes." Migne, "Patrologia Latina," Vol. 145, p.506; also Hergenroether, "Photius," Vol. 3, p.746. (The Nazarenes were a Christian denomination.)

    GREEK CHURCH
    "The observance of Saturday is, as everyone knows, the subject of a bitter dispute between the Greeks and the Latins." Neale, "A History of the Holy Eastern Church," Vol 1, p. 731. (Referring to the separation of the Greek Church from the Latin in 1054)

    Sabbath Observance - The Twelveth Century A.D.

    LOMBARDY
    "Traces of Sabbath-keepers are found in the times of Gregory I, Gregory VII, and in the twelfth century in Lombardy." Strong's Cyclopaedia, 1, 660

    WALDENSES
    "Robinson gives an account of some of the Waldenses of the Alps, who were called Sabbati, Sabbatati, Insabbatati, but more frequently Inzabbatati. "One says they were so named from the Hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept the Saturday for the Lord's day.'" General History of the Baptist Denomination, Vol.II, P. 413

    SPAIN (Alphonse of Aragon)
    "Alphonse, king of Aragon, etc., to all archbishopss, bishops and to all others...'We command y;ou that heretics, to wit, Waldenses and Insabbathi, should be expelled away from the face of God and from all Catholics and ordered to depart from our kingdom.'" Marianse, Praefatio in Lucam Tudensem, found in "Macima Gibliotheca Veterum Patrum," Vol.25, p.190

    HUNGARY FRANCE, ENGLAND, ITALY, GERMANY. (Referring to the Sabbath- keeping Pasagini) "The spread of heresy at this time is almost incredible. From Gulgaria to the Ebro, from nothern France to the Tiber, everywhere we meet them. Whole countries are infested, like Hungary and southern France; they abound in many other countries, in Germany, in Italy, in the Netherlands and even in England they put forth their efforts." Dr. Hahn, "Gesch. der Ketzer." 1, 13, 14

    WALDENSES
    "Among the documents. we have by the same peoples, an explanation of the Ten Commandments dated by Boyer 1120. Observance of the Sabbath by ceasing from worldly labours, is enjoined." Blair, History of the Waldenses, Vol.1, p. 220

    WALES
    "There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales university until A.D.1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welslh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." Lewis, "Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America," Vol.1, p.29

    FRANCE
    "For twenty years Peter de Bruys stirred southern France. He especialy emphasised a day of worship that was recognized at that time amaong the Celtic churches of the British Isles, among the Paulicians, and in the great Church of the East namely, the the seventh day of the fourth commandment."

    PASAGINI
    The papal author, Bonacursus, wrote the following against the "Pasagaini": "Not a few, but many know what are the errors of those who are called Pasaagini...First, they teach that we should obey the Sabbath. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the church Fathers, and the whole Roman Church." D'Achery, Spicilegium I,f.211-214; Muratory, Antiq. med. aevi.5, f.152, Hahn, 3, 209

    Sabbath Observance - The Thirteenth Century A.D.

    WALDENSES
    "They say that the blessed Pope Sylvester was the Antichrist of whom mention is made in the Epistles of SSt. Paul as having been the son of perdition.[They also say] that the keeping of the Sabbath ought to take place." Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches ofPiedmont," p.169 (by prominent Roman Cathholic author writing about Waldenses)
    FRANCE (Waldenses)
    To destroy completely these heretics Pope Innocent III sent Dominican inquistors into France, and also crusaders, promising "a plenary remission of all sins, to those who took on them the crusade...against the albigenses." Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol.XII, art."Raymond VI," p. 670

    WALDENSES OF FRANCE
    "The inquisitors...[declare] that the sign of a Vaudois, deemed worthy of death, was that he followed Christ and sought to obey the commandments fo God." History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages," H.C.Les, vol.1

    FRANCE
    Thousands of God's people were tortured to death by the Inquisition, buried alive, burned to death, or hacked to pieces by the crusaders. While devastating the city of Biterre the soldiers asked the Catholic leaders how they should know who were heretics; "Slay them all, for the Lord knows who is His." History of the Inquisition, pp.96

    FRANCE-KING LOUIS IX,1229
    Published the statute "Cupientes" in which he charges himself to clear southern France from heretics as the Sabbath-keepers were called.

    WALDENSES OF FRANCE
    "The heresy of the Vaudois, or poor people of Lyons, is of great antiquity, for some say that it has been continued down ever since the time of Pope Sylvester; and others, ever since that of the apostles." The Roman Inquisitor, Reinerus Sacho, writing about 1230

    FRANCE-Council Toulouse, 1229
    Canons against Sabbath-keepers: "Canon 3.-The lords of the different districts shall have the villas, houses and woods diligently searched, and the hiding-places of the heretics destroyed.

    "Canon 14-Lay members are not allowed to possess the books of either the Old or the New Testaments." Hefele, 5, 931, 962

    EUROPE
    "The Paulicians, Petrobusinas, Passaginians, Waldenses, Insabbatati were great Sabbath-keeping bodies of Europe down to 1250 A.D."

    PASAGINIANS
    Dr. Hahn says that if the Pasaginians referred to the 4th Commandment to support the Sabbath, the Roman priests answered, "The Sabbath symbolised the eternal rest of the saints."

    MONGOLIA
    "The Mongolian conquest did not injure the Church of the East. (Sabbath-keeping.) On the contrary, a number of the Mongolian princes and a larger number of Mongolian queens were members of this church."

    Sabbath Observance - The Fourteenth Century A.D.

    WALDENSES
    "That we are to worship one only God, who is able to help us, and not the Saints departed; that we ought to keep holy the Sabbath day." Luther's Fore-runners," p. 38

    INSABBATI
    "For centuries evangelical bodies, especially the Waldenses, were called Insabbati because of Sabbath-keeping." Gui, Manueld' Inquisiteur

    BOHEMIA, 1310 (Modern Czechoslovakia)
    "In 1310, two hundred years before Luther's theses, the Bohemian brethern constituted onefourth of the population of Bohemia, and that they were in touch with the Waldenses who abounded in Austria, Lombardy,. Bohemia, north Germany, Thuringia, Brandenburg, and Moravia. Erasmus pointed out how strictly Bohemian Waldenses kept the seventh day Sabbath." Armitage, "A History of the Baptists," p.313; Cox, "The Literature of the Sabbath Question," vol. 2, pp. 201-202

    NORWAY
    Then, too, in the "Catechism" that was used during the fourteenth century, the Sabbath commandment read thus; "Thou shalt not forget to keep the seventh day." This is quoted from "Documents and Studies Concerning the History of the Lutheran Catechism in the Nordish Churches," p.89. Christiania 1893

    NORWAY
    "Also the priests have caused the people to keep Saturdays as Sundays." Theological Periodicals for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Norway, Vol.1, p.184 Oslo

    ENGLAND, HOLLAND, BOHEMIA
    "We wrote of the Sabbatarians in Bohemia, Transylvania, England and Holland between 1250 and 1600 A.D." Truth Triumphant, Wilkinson, p.309

    ..............

    Hope this is helpful I can keep posting down to this present day if you like please let me know if you want more of the Historical records that support the biblical ones. :)
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    So who do we believe; the Word of God; or the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God? Something to think about as many will come to him in that day and say Lord, Lord did we not do this and that in your name? He will say unto them depart from me you who sin (break God's Commandments), I never knew you.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word :)
     
  9. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Just as a general comment, this thread is an example of one of main reasons why I don't believe in any religion or church. It's this kind of endless back-and-forth bickering over what seems an extremely minor and trivial matter.

    It reminds me of churches having schisms over whether to do the Signs of the Cross with two or three fingers - or whether to do it all.

    Why do these insignificant little things matter so much from a religious point of view? Isn't it enough that people just try to live a good life and be decent and charitable towards others? Why argue like a bunch of lawyers, using legalese and endless citations?

    And what's the implication here? Are people who celebrate the Sabbath on the "wrong" day going to be lumped in with thieves and murderers?
     
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  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hello Steve, nice to meet you. Let me just post a few comments here. Firstly this is a biblical discussion forum on the scriptures from God's Word. The topic of this thread is called "Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?" Did you read the OP?

    The OP poses many questions in relation to God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11 of the 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:1-17 asking why people think it might be abolished when there is not a single scripture in all of the bible that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day!

    According to the scriptures God's 10 Commandments give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTESOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin. If we knowingly continue in sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) the scriptures teach there is no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-27. So it is not a trivial matter according to the scriptures that we are discussing or is it insignificant.

    Now the above said the reason for the OP is that Sunday worship is a man made teaching and tradition of men that is not biblical handed down by the Roman Catholic Church to the rest of Christianity that has lead many people either knowingly or unknowingly to follow man made teachings and traditions that break God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11. JESUS warns his followers about this exact same topic of discussion in MATTHEW 15:3-9

    God knows many follow these traditions from ignorance because they do not know any better. He loves all and is calling all who have ears to hear and eyes to see to hear his voice (the Word of God) and to Seek him in prayer asking for his Spirit to guide and teach you. He promises to be your guide and teacher. (John 14:26; 16:13: 7:17)

    JESUS has many of his followers in all Church's *JOHN 10:16 living up to all the knowledge of his Word that he has revealed to them and in times of ignorance God winks at but calls all men everywhere to believe and follow his Word *ACTS 17:30-31. According to the scriptures however the hour is coming and now is that his true followers wherever they may be will worship him in Spirit and in truth for God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24; REVELATION 18:1-4.

    We are actually discussing the truth of God's Word who are we following God or man? This is the fulfullment of prophecy in DANIEL 7:25 and REVELATION 18:1-5; JOHN 10:16; JOHN 4:23-24.

    These things are not insignificant. Sin is the transgression (breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments - 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11) and the wages of sin is death to all those who continue in it according to the scriptures *HEBREWS 10:26-27.

    There is not one scripture in all of the bible that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. This is a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical and has decieved the Christian world.

    At the end of the day sin is sin. We commit sin by breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39. Your welcome to read the scriptures I have provided and see if what I am saying is true or not true.

    Hope this helps any misunderstanding you may have here and nice to meet you. :)
     
    #350 3rdAngel, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    What a frickin’’ waste of bandwidth. I thought you were all about “bible only,” yet you just wasted a bunch of everyone’s bandwidth quoting outside sources. I thought we could only use the Bible to prove our points? Guess that only applies when it serves your purposes, eh?

    Additionally, the preponderance of your rant didn’t even address my point that Sunday worship became a sanctioned thing very early on. Nowhere in my point did I say that the church abolished Sabbath observance. That’s something you assumed.

    I think you’ve had enough. My posts are obviously upsetting you to spur such a rant as you’ve displayed here. Obviously, for some unknown reason, Saturday worship is a spiritual game-maker for you, and you feel you have to really prove that point. Don’t know why; couldn’t really care less. If you want to worship on Saturday that’s your business, and you can dream up all sorts of “I believe in the Bible” claptrap to “prove” it to yourself. But don’t pretend for one minute that your belief changes the reality of worship observance for the rest of us.

    You haven’t managed to prove your point.
     
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  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    What outside sources. The post you quoted from was in reference to the very words of JESUS in MATTHEW 15:3-9 which is a warning not to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. :)
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yeah, but you quoted all these outside sources about what France and Germany was doing, and what Josephus said in this 3-post long diatribe prior to this particular post (which ended the diatribe). I didn’t quote that diatribe, because it was just too lengthy. Apparently, you quote outside sources when it suits you.
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The outside historical references were in regards to my earlier post to support biblical evidence. They were Historical records that support the biblical record that the early Church worshipped God everyday ACTS 2:46-47 and that they continued to keep God's 4th commandment Sabbath as a Holy day right down to this present day as did the Apostles *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yeah, but you said you were a “bible only” guy.
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Bible only when it comes to exegesis getting the meaning of the scriptures from the bible :)
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Except that’s not How It Works. You’re not exegeting. You’re proof-texting. That’s not the same thing. One gleans facts. The other builds an apology. You’re building an apology. And a poor one.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense my friend. I made an early statement to which I was providing proof. My early statement said that I believe the biblical record show that God's people worshipped God everyday of the week as it is written in ACTS 2:46-47 and also that the early church kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures and posted as proof *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4.

    I also stated that not only does the biblical record support these claims IMO but also the historical records show that God's people all through time after the death of JESUS kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures and as proof I posted multiple Historical references for each century to prove that claim which is separate from my biblical claims.

    I believe you do not like this because it proves I am telling you the truth. You are free to believe as you wish. I am only sharing with you what I believe and why I believe what I do by providing evidence.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  19. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    I trust in God's forgiveness if we are in error because we celebrate one day later.

    I agree. There are more important things.
     
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  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yeah, we know they worshiped every day. that’s no surprise. And of course the Judaic Christians kept Shabbat. I’ve mentioned that very thing. It’s biblical. What you’re missing (and this becomes the proof-texting part) is that as Xy spread to Gentile territory, Xtians were not bound to keep Shabbat. Saturday worship on the part of Gentiles isn’t Shabbat. Generally — and in in subsequent years, as Xy became the state religion, Saturday worship became another day in the observance of the Hours.

    You seem to be enthralled enough with the day that you forget that “observing the seventh day” isn’t just about the day. There is a specific way of observing that’s required.

    Additionally, in Xy, even if they’re worshiping on Saturday, the Eucharist is still the main form of worship, and it’s always celebrated on Sunday, or in anticipation of Sunday. So the form and meaning has changed, as well as the impetus, even if the day hasn’t.
     
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