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Featured Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    1) You haven’t proven that the Bible is such.
    2) The Bible is part of human tradition.

    Prophecy isn’t “future prediction.” It’s “speaking God’s truth.”

    Except the Gospels and epistles aren’t prophecy.

    It does if it’s set aside for a special purpose.

    “Man made” is a false qualifier. It’s all man made.

    “Getting information from” and “based on” are two different things. The NT doesn’t “build upon” the OT. It represents a departure from the OT in some significant theological ways.

    It doesn’t mean that “the law no longer applies.”
     
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  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sure I have. I have provided you with the scriptures that show the opposite of what your teaching as evidence for my claims as proof that what your claiming is not true. You on the other hand simply provide your own opinion that you cannot prove and simply choose, not believe the scriptures shared with you that show why you are in error. Your denial of the scriptures in favour of man made teachings is amazing :)

    A prophecy is a future prediction. Perhaps you should look up the meaning.

    Not really. Your contradicting yourself here to what you said earlier that prophecy is the word of God. Although the gospels are the good news of the Word of God they also hold prophecies (predictions of the future eg, MATTHEW 24) and the fulfillment of prophecies from the old testament scriptures in JESUS and what he did in his life.

    Sunday was never set aside for a special purpose. To the Apostles and the early disciples it was just another day as shown in ACTS 2:47-48.

    Not really. Your trying to argue that man made traditions supersede the Word of God when the scriptures teach the opposite of what you are claiming. I do not believe your view, I believe God's view and what the scriptures teach :)

    Nonsense! Just another opinion claim on your behalf you cannot prove and not based on fact.

    HEBREWS 10:1-14 states that the laws for remission of sin are shadows laws from the Mosaic book of the old covenant *EXODUS 24:7 that pointed to Christ as the true sacrifice for sin and and the true priesthood fulfilled in Christ as the promised Messiah. This is only one example of many that proves why your claim that NT does not build on the OT is not true. The whole NT is built on the OT showing the fulfillment of many prophecies from the OT pointing to JESUS as the promised Messiah and God's plan of salvation for mankind under the new covenant. According to you, if your claiming the Mosaic laws for remission of sin still apply then you better go off and sacrifice animals again and find a Levite to help you with that (not serious btw).

    Hope this helps :)
     
    #322 3rdAngel, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Scriptures cannot prove themselves. by definition, proof comes from a third party.

    Nope. Not. It may contain prediction, but that’s not the main focus or intent of prophecy.
    You would benefit from a good class in biblical literature.

    It was actually, as stated in Acts and as corroborated by the teaching of the Twelve.

    I’m arguing that the Bible is part and parcel of human tradition.

    Oh, but it is. You just haven’t gotten the facts because you’re too buried in your blinders.

    You’e making a false distinction between the Ten Commandments and the rest of the law. None of them apply to Gentiles.
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Many third party eyewitness accounts prove the scriptures true. The bible was not a book someone found it is based on many manuscripts and prophecies that have been proven true from the historical records. That being said I am sure you will make up some excuse not to believe them :)

    Yep! As I said earlier perhaps you should look up the word meaning of prophecy.

    I would suggest if this is what your basing your information on to get your money back and leave immediately. :)

    No it's not. Please show me the scripture that says Sunday is any different from any other day of the week? Here is the scriptures that shows why I disagree with you. It shows the disciples meeting together, breaking bread and worshipping God every day of the week.

    ACTS 2:46-47 [46], And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,[47], Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    The scriptures do not say every day of the week is a Holy day which is only given to the Sabbath day which was the day they all kept Holy according to God's 4th commandment...

    ACTS 13:14 [14], But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

    ACTS 13:44 [44], And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Note: the whole city here is Antiioch in Psidia (in modern day Syria) many of which were gentiles

    ACTS 16:13 [13], And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spoke to the women which resorted thither.

    ACTS 17:2 [2], And Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.

    Same custom JESUS had...

    LUKE 4:16 [16], And he (JESUS) came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

    ACTS 18:4 [4] And he (Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    Nope no scriptures there that say Sunday was set aside for special purposes because there is no scripture that says this as you claim. Sunday was like every other day of the week to the believers as it is shown in ACTS 2:46-47. If you still disagree however please provide the scripture that says Sunday was set aside for a special puerpose as you claim? If you cannot why make claims that are not true. :)

    Earlier you were trying to claim that human tradition supersedes the scriptures. Are you changing your story now? The scriptures that have been shared with you show that there is nothing wrong with human tradition if it agrees with the scriptures. Human tradition and man made teachings however according to the scriptures are only wrong when they lead people away from what the scriptures teach. JESUS directly warns us about this in MATTHEW 15:3-9 where he says those who follow man made teaching and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God. Peter also states this in ACTS 5:29 saying we ought to obey God rather then man meaning the scriptures are the sole authority to those who believe and follow God's Word.

    Oh, but it is. You just haven’t gotten the facts because you’re too buried in your blinders.

    Not really. The scriptures teach that the Book of the law is different to God's law (10 commandments). This is also shown in HEBREWS 10:1-14. There are many laws written in the torah from the Mosaic book of the law. Here your only trying to change the subject because you have been caught out in your claims that there are no shadow laws in the bible. According to the scritures in the new covenant God's LAW (10 Commandments) have the same role they always have and that is to give those who believe and follow God's Word the knowledge of good and evil; sin and rightouesness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. According to the scriptures in the NC if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandments Sabbath is one of those 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it *EXODUS 20:8-11 and I believe the scriptures teach that if we knowingly continue in unrepentant sin after we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *ACTS 17-30-31; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I didn’t say that they weren’t true. I said that the scriptures cannot prove themselves to be God’s words.

    You’re out of your league.

    You’re out of your league.

    The Acts passage, along with the Didache, make plain What the Apostles designated Sunday for.

    Nope.

     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your contradicting yourself here. You seem to be agreeing that the scriptures are true here yet you do not believe them when they say that they are God's Word written through man to mankind which we are to live by and that JESUS is the living word of God as shown in *2 TIMOTHY 3:16; 2 PETER 1:21; MATTHEW 4:4; JOHN 1:1-4; 14.

    Your post does not make any sense here. Your claim was that prophecy does not mean future prediction. I suggested you look up the meaning as it does.

    What ACTS passage you have not provided any ACTS scripture that says Sunday was set aside as a special day. You were shown that ACTS 2:46-47 says the disciples worshipped God and broke bread every day from house to house and they kept the Sabbath as a Holy day according to God's 4th commandment. The didiache on the other hand is not scripture it is a source that is outside of the scriptures written by men and contradicts scripture so in my view is not worth the paper it is written on.

    Hope this helps. :)
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Nope.

    Of course not; you’re out of your league.

    Read Acts 20.
     
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  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    What about ACTS 20? Well I will admit you have your own unique opinions even if you cannot prove them :)
     
    #328 3rdAngel, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    If you can’t figure out Acts 20 without tripping over your bias, there’s no help for you. You’ve already convinced yourself that this ballyhoo of yours is real; the tomes you’ve given us at the outset of your threads telling us all about your pet theory show that.

    If you want to believe in 7th day worship, that’s your prerogative. Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue in the Apostles’ teaching, the breaking of bread, and the prayers.
     
    #329 sojourner, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    What bias? Please go ahead. What scripture in ACTS 20 do you claim says Sunday is now a special day that we must keep as a Holy day when ACTS 2:46-47 says the disciples worshipped JESUS everyday and the rest of the scriptures say the disciples kept the SABBATH as a holy day? Your making things up now that are not biblical and you have know it. :)
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It’s not just Acts 20. It’s Acts 20 in context of what we read in the Didache, in context of the Resurrection, and Pentecost, and Genesis, and Paul.

    In Acts 20, the disciples were sharing the Lord’s Supper — something they had done regularly. On this occasion, Paul (who, in the Bible refers to Sunday as “The Lord’s Day) joins them to preach. The fact that Paul in the Bible sets Sunday apart as “The Lord’s Day” makes Sunday holy, because that’s what “holy” means: set apart.

    The Resurrection happens on the first day. The Spirit is conferred on Pentecost on the first day. Light is created on the first day. The first day is theologically important to the biblical writers, since many theologically significant circumstances happen on that day. It’s all biblical, since that’s so important to you.

    The Didache assumes that Christians are sharing Eucharist on Sunday and instructs us to celebrate Eucharist (Mass) on the first day. And that dates very early — maybe even to the time of the Twelve.

    To the biblical writers and to those in the apostolic tradition, Sunday is a holy day. That’s not to say that we can’t participate in shabbat, but it is to say that, since the beginning, the apostles shared in the central act of the church ... on the first day of the week.
     
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  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense! So your saying now we have to read ACTS 20 from the bible in context to something that is written by men outside of the bible to understand it? That makes a lot of sense now doesn't it. Well at least it explains why your confused in some of the claims you have been making.

    Why not read the chapter of ACTS 20 inside the bible to determine context of what is written in the bible to understand the context?

    What your really saying then is that you are agreeing with me that you have no scripture that says that Sunday is set aside as a special day from all the other days of the week right?

    If you have no scripture for your claims here, perhaps you can show me a scripture from your new claim that says Sunday (or the first day of the week) is "THE LORDS DAY"?

    PS. You do know I am asking you for scripture and you have provided none, right? :)
     
    #332 3rdAngel, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Well that is not true. If that were true the biblical writers would have written about it and you would have provided the scriptures already. Fact is you are yet to provide a single scripture says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. As shown earlier through the scriptures, the disciples worshipped God everyday breaking break from house to house *ACTS 2:46-47. This does not make everyday a holy day. As shown through the scriptures the disciples kept the Sabbath as a holy day of rest according to God's 4th commandment *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4. Still waiting for scripture for your claims because there is not any.

    Something to think about :)
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Of course it’s true.
     
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not according to the scriptures. You have provided none to prove what your saying when the scriptures show the opposite of what your claiming :)
     
    #335 3rdAngel, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    According to your interpretation of them, perhaps. But there are definite gaps in your historical grasp of the development of Sunday worship. Again, your argument only has teeth if one subscribes to the heresy of sola scriptura. There is a reason why the Reformers instituted this heresy, and it was to undermine the Tradition of the church, so that they could justify stepping out of the Apostolic Succession. In doing so, they ended up throwing out the authority that canonized the texts. That’s one reason why sola scriptura is a heresy, because it flies in the face of Jesus handing his authority to the apostles and the subsequent Tradition of passing that authority to their successors. Tradition has always been a very important component of spiritual authority, and sola scriptura undermines it, weakening the foundation considerably.
     
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. You have only been provided scripture with no interpretation that states the opposite of what you are claiming.
    Nonsense. There is no such thing as Sunday worship in the bible. There is references to the early Church worshipping God everyday of the week *ACTS 2:46-37 just as there is references to the early Church keeping God's Sabbath as a holy day according to God's 4th commandment *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4. There is no scriptural links to "THE LORDS DAY" being Sunday or the first day of the week. According to the scriptures "THE LORDS DAY" is referred to as the Sabbath day in MATTHEW 12:8.

    All of God's people from the prophets to JESUS, the Apostles to the disciples of the early Church all through time to this very present day have kept God's Sabbath according to God's 4th commandment. This is verified through historical evidence. You know this is true already as I have already provided you with the historical references. Happy to post them again if you like, let me know?

    Sunday worship is a fulfillment of the prophecies of DANIEL 7:25 and it is false teaching that is not biblical. You cannot provide a single scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day now can you?
    It is the scriptures alone that teach sola scriptura as shown in 2 TIMOTHY 3:16; MATTHEW 4:4; 2 PETER 1:21; ACTS 5:29; MATTHEW 15:3-9; 1 CORINTHIANS 4:6. The only heresy is the one that is not biblical or does not believe God's Word, which is what you are promoting trying to claim that tradition supersedes the Word of God when it is God's Word alone that says we only have salvation by believing and following what God's Word says
    Wrong! The reason why the early reformers promoted Sola scripture was that it is biblical and the Roman Catholic Church was not following scripture. The bible no where teaches that man made teachings and traditions supersedes scripture. JESUS makes this very clear and directly refutes this claim in MATTHEW 15:3-9 as does PETER in ACTS 5:29. Now what do you have? - nothing, only empty claims you cannot prove with scripture that JESUS warns us about. :)
     
    #337 3rdAngel, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I’m afraid so.

    It’s right there in Acts.

    Patently false.
    Not all teaching must be strictly biblical.

    no they don’t. Because the writers of the texts didn’t have the concept that the texts provided the only teachings.

    Yes they do.
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    You are entittled to your opinion, although in my view, if it is not biblical and contrary to the scriptures then sadly, there is no truth in what you are claiming.
    No it is not. As shown through the scriptures in ACTS 2:46-47 the disciples worshipped God everyday but they kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath as a holy day of rest according to the scriptures *ACTS 13:14; ACTS 13:44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:2; LUKE 4:16; ACTS 18:4. There is no scriptural links to "THE LORDS DAY" being Sunday or the first day of the week. According to the scriptures "THE LORDS DAY" is referred to as the Sabbath day in MATTHEW 12:8.
    Only according to your opinion which you cannot prove from the scriptures or can you deny from history. According to History and the scriptures as shown you already all of God's people from the prophets to JESUS, the Apostles to the disciples of the early Church all through time to this very present day have kept God's Sabbath according to God's 4th commandment. This is verified through historical evidence. You know this is true already as I have already provided you with the historical references. Happy to post them again if you like, let me know? Sunday worship is a fulfillment of the prophecies of DANIEL 7:25 and it is false teaching that is not biblical. You cannot provide a single scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day now can you? :)
    Sure it does if you believe the scriptures.
    Nonsense! Sure they did. Here you go...

    DEUTERONOMY 8:3 [3], And he humbled you, and suffered you to hunger, and fed you with manna, which you knew not, neither did your fathers know; that he might make you know that man does not live by bread only, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD does man live.

    Yep JESUS says it here in the temptation in the wilderness...

    MATTHEW 4:4 [4], But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

    2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    and again...

    2 PETER 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Peter states we should follow God's Word over man made teachings and traditions here
    ...

    ACTS 5:29 [29]...We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Peter is only following JESUS when he says if we follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not following God here..

    MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3], But he answered and said to them, WHY DO YOU ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? [4], For God commanded, saying, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. [5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me; [6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YOU MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION. [7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9], But IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

    All you have provided is a teaching from the words of men from the Roman Catholic Church that are not biblical.

    Something to think about don't you think? :)
     
    #339 3rdAngel, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Claptrap.
     
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