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Featured Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Being "Jewish" is a nationality that sometimes includes religious affiliation, thus a Gentile can only become "Jewish" if one converts to Judaism, not Christianity.

    And if one is Jewish, then they are mandated to observe all 613 Commandments, not just the first Ten. Too bad your SDA leaders don't teach you that basic truth.
     
  2. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I will also address the so-called '613' 'mitzvot' of the Torah, that first part of the TaNaKh (Torah (instruction/law), Nevi'im (prophets), Ketuvim (writings)), the original breakdown of which looked like - Link

    So, in dealing with what the website you linked us to are 'mitzvot' [H4687], an example is found in Genesis 26:5, which we will look at in just a minute, but first, I want to go back to your source, and show you something that I always point out to sincere people who bring this up.

    Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so here goes:

    [1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.

    [2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration. No one has to take my word for this, it is said as much on the very site so kindly provided to us (it has been provided so many times, I lost count):

    "... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

    As a side note:

    The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link

    [3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided by our resident Noahidden demonstrates the accuracy of this point.

    [4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).

    [5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)
    ... to be continued ...
     
  3. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    ... continued ...

    [6.] The '613' number is for some calculated on Gematraic principles, with differing reasons or starting points by differing Rabbis, and for this reason, some disagree that it should be said number, for instance:

    "... I disagree there are 613 Mitzvot because the explanation for the number is based on gematria, however the gematria of the Torah is not Standard. Instead of the letters Shin and Tav having the value of 300 and 400, they are valued at 3 and 4, and using this most secret gematria the number of Mitzvot would be 217 (31 × 7). However 613 is discovered with this gematria in the opening verses of Genesis so it is still a very significant gematria number.

    We first get the idea of 613 mitzvot from Rabbi Simlai:

    From Makkot 24a:

    "דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם אמר רב המנונא מאי קרא (דברים לג, ד) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה תורה בגימטריא שית מאה וחד סרי הוי אנכי ולא יהיה לך מפי הגבורה שמענום

    § Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah, consisting of 365 prohibitions corresponding to the number of days in the solar year, and 248 positive mitzvot corresponding to the number of a person’s limbs. Rav Hamnuna said: What is the verse that alludes to this? It is written: “Moses commanded to us the Torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 34:4). The word Torah, in terms of its numerical value [gimatriyya], is 611, the number of mitzvot that were received and taught by Moses our teacher. In addition, there are two mitzvot: “I am the Lord your God” and: “You shall have no other gods” (Exodus 20:2, 3), the first two of the Ten Commandments, that we heard from the mouth of the Almighty, for a total of 613."[1]

    However the word תורה is valued at 215; Tav:4 + Vav:6 + Resh:200 + Heh:5 = 215. So if we add the two for the first two commandments the people heard at Sinai: 215 + 2 = 217.

    Regarding the number of צִיצִית which is supposed to equal the number of Mitzvot:

    Rashi "וזכרתם את כל מצות ה'. שֶׁמִּנְיַן גִּימַטְרִיָּא שֶׁל צִיצִית שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת, וּשְׁמוֹנָה חוּטִין וַחֲמִשָּׁה קְשָׁרִים הֲרֵי תרי"ג (תנחומא): You will remember all of Adonoy’s commandments. As the numerical value of צִיצִית is 600, and the eight threads and five knots equal 613."[2]

    צִיצִית = 204

    plus 8 threads and 5 knots = 217.

    You can check the sums on this gematria calculator which uses the correct gematria of the Torah; Shematria

    Vilna Gaon in Orot Hagra also disagreed that 613 was the correct number, saying;

    It definitely cannot be said that only 613, and no more, come under the category of mitzvot. For if so, there are only three mitzvot from Berei**** until Bo, and many portions of the Torah contain no mitzvot. That is not plausible… The mitzvot are thus multitudinous beyond enumeration… ..." - Are there really 613 Mitzvot? : Gematria

    [7.]
    Moses specifically said by inspiration of God, that what God spoke and wrote at Mt. Sinai with His own voice and finger from Heaven were "the ten commandments". God came down upon Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty, with the whole mountain covered in the fire of the presence of the Holy Angels of God, so that none but those whom God called up were able to come near.

    Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

    Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

    Deu_10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.​

    In each place the Hebrew word "[1697] dabar" is used, as the Ten Commandments are not merely laws or commands, but individual promises of God each that He would perform in those who would walk in His covenant. More on that later as needful.​

    [8.]
    The "ten commandments" that God spake in Person to all the people without the mediator Moses, were a complete Law, nothing further being added unto them, except later as to be written in a scroll/book through a mediator (Moses):

    Deu_5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.​

    [9.]
    The "ten commandments" were written by God's own finger originally on sapphire stone and which second set was placed into the "pattern" Ark of the Covenant in the earthly tabernacle (Exodus 25:16,21).

    [10.] The other precepts, statutes, laws, commands, ordinances, etc were all given by God through the mediator Moses, to be written by Moses' hand, and placed not inside of the Ark, but to be placed in the side of the Ark:

    Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

    So, while important, God makes distinction, by several means. The many other things which God gave fall under the umbrella of the Ten Commandments:

    Psa_119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.​

    and as such '613' probably wouldn't even come close to the depth of God's Ten Commandments, which are the expansion of His perfect character of Love, which itself is expressed in the greatest (Deuteronomy 6:5) and second greatest commandments (Leviticus 19:17-18) (both of whose contexts are the Ten Commandments, see Deut. 5, etc).​

    [11.]
    The '613' enumeration only considers material within the texts of the Torah (Gen-Deut), and not any other material from the Nevi'im or Ketuvim, as if God somehow stopped talking and giving commands through men, priests or prophets or kings, see Isaiah 8:20 (Law and Testimony)

    [12.] Even from a basic search of scripture, the Torah itself makes differences between words:

    Gen 26:5 KJB Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Gen 26:5 KJB Str. BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451

    Gen 26:5 HOT עקב אשׁר־שׁמע אברהם בקלי וישׁמר משׁמרתי מצותי חקותי ותורתי׃

    Gen 26:5 HOT Str. עקבH6118 אשׁרH834 שׁמעH8085 אברהםH85 בקליH6963 וישׁמרH8104 משׁמרתיH4931 מצותיH4687 חקותיH2708 ותורתי׃H8451 (apologies for how this posts, not much can be done about that, I used highligher to mark the beginning and ending, so while the sentence reads left to right, each individual word correctly reads right to left)

    Gen 26:5 HOT Translit. ëqev ásher-shäma av'rähäm B'qoliy waYish'mor mish'mar'Tiy mitz'wotay chuQôtay w'tôrotäy​

    Notice the distinction made between H4687 (mitzvot) and H8451 (torah), which is again found in Exodus 16:28,

    Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

    This should suffice for now.
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Well, it's interesting that you admit that as that which is called the "Catholic Church" is the actual church of the apostles. Thus, even as John the Apostle was still alive, the Church was already taking steps towards "the Lord's Day" (Sunday) observance as an extension of the "Agape Meal". Even the Wiki article, which is certainly not a Catholic source, showed you that-- but you just blow that off as well.

    Simply not true, which can be verified through non-denominational sources. Differing religious groups, using different "bibles" with differing concepts about Jesus and the apostles, taught all sorts of different things, but there is no continuous line of the Church that continued on with the Shabbat observance.

    The Baptists have tried to make a similar claim in regards to "believers baptism", but a deacon within that denomination wrote his thesis on this and told me that it really doesn't work because one has to jump from one group after another, and these groups were highly inconsistent in terms of what they actually believed about Jesus, plus they used different "bibles".

    So, what your SDA leaders are teaching you on this is merely a fabrication that doesn't make one iota of historical sense.

    Also, try using non-SDA sources that you obviously cut & paste from because the SDA has a vested interest in keeping you and others within their ranks.
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yes, I'm quite aware of this as I taught Jewish theology for roughly 15 years at the synagogue I used to belong to. With that being said, most within Judaism do use the 613 count.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    You're using artificial divisions that only exist in abstraction, as any rabbi will tell you that the 613 Commandments exist as is, thus any division of them is just for classification's's sake. If you doubt this, then maybe take this part of the discussion and post a new thread with a question on this in a Judaism DIR forum.

    If one actually gets into why Jews were punished by God at times, the common thread is that all too many were not observing the entire Law-- all 613 of them. Even near the end of Isaiah, there's the reference for the need to keep kosher, for example, which is not one of the Ten.

    Within Judaism, the 613 Commandments are in reality viewed as an unbroken thread that an observant Jew cannot just pick and choose from in terms of which to follow.
     
  7. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Glad I am Bible (KJB) Christian then, and not one of rabbinic/talmudic/kabbalistic judaism (it's not even OT Judaism).
     
  8. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Just went through this. No such thing, except in the minds of certain rabbins, who do not agree with one another.
     
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    You really don't know what you're talking about on this.

    If you truly were interested in the Truth, you would do as I recommended, namely go to a Judaism DIR and actually ask them. But clearly you're not.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    :rolleyes:
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yea funny about that. Not sure why people think there are 613 commandments in God's 10 commandments *Deuteronomy 10:4? Must have strange ways of calculating things outside of the scriptures.
     
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I never said any such thing. The church of the Apostles is one that believes and follows God's Word. That is who God's Word defines as God's Church.
    Your confused there is no scripture that says "SUNDAY" is "THE LORDS DAY" this is a man made teaching and tradition that has led many to break God's 4th commandment.
    Your response...
    These are simply your words while the post you are responding fo has provided biblical references from God's Word which are not my words but Gods and independent historical references verifying what has been shared with you is true in post # 212 linked; post # 213 linked; post # 214 linked; post # 215 linked; post # 220 linked; with more to come. You in response provide your own words which are your and not verified by both God's Word and independent historical fact.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.
     
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Ok just getting back to this.. I think we have shown many independant historical references tracing those who kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath all through time in biblical history to JESUS and the apostles unbroken so far to the 15th century all over the world. Let's continue to the 16th Century today...

    Sabbath Observance - The Sixteenth Century A.D.

    ENGLAND
    "In the reign of Elizabeth, it occurred to many conscientious and independent thinkers (as it previously had done to some Protestants in Bohemia) that the fourth commandment required of them the observance, not of the first, but of the specified 'seventh' day of the week." Chambers' Cyclopaedia, article "Sabbath," Vol. 8, p. 462, 1537

    RUSSIA (Council, Noscow, 1593)
    "The accused [Sabbath-keepers] were summoned; they openly acknowledged the new faith, and defended the same. The most eminent of them, the secretary of state, Kuritzyn, Ivan Maximow, Kassian, archimandrite of the Fury Monastery of Novgorod, were condemned to death, and burned publicly in cages, at Moscow; Dec. 17,1503." H.Sternberfi, "Geschichte der Juden" (Leipsig, 1873), pp.117-122

    SWEDEN
    "This zeal for Saturday-keeping continued for a long time: even little things which might strengthen the practice of keeping Saturday were punished." Bishop Anjou, "Svenska Kirkans Historia after Motetthiers, Upsala

    LICHENSTEIN FAMILY
    (estates in Austria, Bohemia, Morovia, Hungary. Lichenstein in the Rhine Valley wasn't their country until the end of the 7th century). "The Sabbatarians teach that the outward Sabbath, i.e. Saturday, still must be observed, They say that Sunday is the Pope's invention." Refutation of Sabbath, by Wolfgang Capito, published 1599

    BOHEMIA (the Bohemian Brethren)
    Dr. R. Cox says: "I find from a passage in Erasmus that at the early period of the Reformantion when he wrote, there were Sabbatarians in Bohemia, who not only kept the seventh day, but were said to be...scrupulous in resting on it." Literature of the Sabbath Question, Cox, Vol. II, pp. 201, 202

    HISTORIAN'S LIST OF CHURCHES (16th Century)
    "Sabbatarians, so called because they reject the observance of the Lord's day as not commanded in Scripture, they consider the Sabbath alone to be holy, as God rested on that day and commanded to keep it holy and to rest on it." A. Ross

    GERMANY
    -Dr. Esk (while refuting the Reformers) "However, the church has transferred the observance from Saturday to Sunday by virtue of her own power, without Scripture." Dr. Esk's "Enchiridion," 1533, pp.78,79

    PRINCES OF LICHTENSTEIN (Europe)
    About the hear 1520 many of these Sabbath-keepers found shelter on the estate of Lord Leonhardt of Lichtensein held to the observance of the true Sabbath." J.N.Andrews, History of the Sabbath, p. 649, ed.

    INDIA
    "The famous Jesuit, Francis Xavier, called for the Inquisition, which was set up in Goa, India, in 1560, to check the 'Jewish wickedness' (Sabbath-keeping)." Adeney, "The Greek and Eastern Churches," p.527, 528

    NORWAY-1544
    "Some of you, contrary to the warning, keep Saturday. You ought to be severely punished. Whoever shall be found keeping Saturday, must pay a fine of ten marks." History of King Christian the Third," Niels Krag and S. Stephanius

    AUSTRIA
    "Sabatarians now exist in Austria." Luther, "Lectures on Genesis," A.D.1523-27

    ABYSSINIA--A.D. 1534
    (Abyssinian legate at court of Lisbon) "It is not therefore, in imitation of the Jews, but in obedience to Christ and His holy apostles, that we observe the day." Gedde's "Church History of Ethiopia," pp. 87,8

    DR. MARTIN LUTHER
    "God blessed the Sabbath and sanctified it to Himself. God willedl that this command concerning the Sabbath should remain. He willed that on the seventh day the word should be preached." Commentary on Genesis, Vol.1, pp.138-140

    BAPTISTS
    "Some have suffered torture because they would not rest when others kept Sunday, for they declared it to be the holiday and law of Antichrist." Sebastian Frank (A.D. 1536)

    FINLAND-Dec. 6,1554
    (King Gustavus Vasa I, of Sweden's letter to the people of Finland) "Some time ago we heard that some people in Finland had fallen into a great error and observed the seventh day, called Saturday." State Library at Helsingfors, Reichsregister, Vom J., 1554, Teil B.B. leaf 1120, pp.175-180a

    SWITZERLAND
    "The observance of the Sabbath is a part of the moral law. It has been kept hholy since the beginning of the world." Ref. Noted Swiss writer, R Hospinian, 1592

    HOLLAND AND GERMANY
    Barbara of Thiers, who was executed in 1529, declared: "God has commanded us to rest on the seventh day." Another martyr, Christina Tolingerin, is mentioned thus: "Concerning holy days and Sundays, she said: 'In six days the Lord made the world, on the seventh day he rested. The other holy days have been instituted by popes, cardinals, and archbishops.'" Martyrology of the Churches of Christ, commonly called Baptists, during the era of the Reformation, from the Dutch of T.J. Van Bright, London, 1850,1, pp.113-4.

    Will move on to the 17th century shortly...
     
  14. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    You don't read the 1st 5 books (called Moses) in your bible?

    Lev 24:22 You shall have one kind of law, for the foreigner as well as the native-born: for I am the LORD your God.’”
     
  15. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    Your jesus; the new god eh?

    Christians do not believe what is written in the "new testament" even if one shows them.
     
  16. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    Wow! Properly brain washed.:)
     
  17. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    And then they become Israelites not Christians.
     
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  18. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    The Feasts/Holy days of the Creator.
    If youd have studied them , they will show you proof.
    You are not to keep Heathen feasts like xmas.
     
  19. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    Nonsense.
     
  20. roberto

    roberto Active Member

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    You have no idea what you are professing, go read ephesians 2


    Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones, and of the household of God,

    If you are grafted into the Olive-tree(Romans 11); you become an Israelite and not a Christian.

    Christians are still heathens(following pagan practices like xmas and eostre)
     
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