Featured Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Being "Jewish" is a nationality that sometimes includes religious affiliation, thus a Gentile can only become "Jewish" if one converts to Judaism, not Christianity.

And if one is Jewish, then they are mandated to observe all 613 Commandments, not just the first Ten. Too bad your SDA leaders don't teach you that basic truth.

 

I will also address the so-called '613' 'mitzvot' of the Torah, that first part of the TaNaKh (Torah (instruction/law), Nevi'im (prophets), Ketuvim (writings)), the original breakdown of which looked like - Link

So, in dealing with what the website you linked us to are 'mitzvot' [H4687], an example is found in Genesis 26:5, which we will look at in just a minute, but first, I want to go back to your source, and show you something that I always point out to sincere people who bring this up.

Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so here goes:

[1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.

[2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration. No one has to take my word for this, it is said as much on the very site so kindly provided to us (it has been provided so many times, I lost count):

"... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

As a side note:

The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link​

[3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided by our resident Noahidden demonstrates the accuracy of this point.

[4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).

[5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)
​

... to be continued ...

 

... continued ...

[6.] The '613' number is for some calculated on Gematraic principles, with differing reasons or starting points by differing Rabbis, and for this reason, some disagree that it should be said number, for instance:

"... I disagree there are 613 Mitzvot because the explanation for the number is based on gematria, however the gematria of the Torah is not Standard. Instead of the letters Shin and Tav having the value of 300 and 400, they are valued at 3 and 4, and using this most secret gematria the number of Mitzvot would be 217 (31 × 7). However 613 is discovered with this gematria in the opening verses of Genesis so it is still a very significant gematria number.

We first get the idea of 613 mitzvot from Rabbi Simlai:

From Makkot 24a:

"דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם אמר רב המנונא מאי קרא (דברים לג, ד) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה תורה בגימטריא שית מאה וחד סרי הוי אנכי ולא יהיה לך מפי הגבורה שמענום

§ Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah, consisting of 365 prohibitions corresponding to the number of days in the solar year, and 248 positive mitzvot corresponding to the number of a person’s limbs. Rav Hamnuna said: What is the verse that alludes to this? It is written: “Moses commanded to us the Torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 34:4). The word Torah, in terms of its numerical value [gimatriyya], is 611, the number of mitzvot that were received and taught by Moses our teacher. In addition, there are two mitzvot: “I am the Lord your God” and: “You shall have no other gods” (Exodus 20:2, 3), the first two of the Ten Commandments, that we heard from the mouth of the Almighty, for a total of 613."[1]

However the word תורה is valued at 215; Tav:4 + Vav:6 + Resh:200 + Heh:5 = 215. So if we add the two for the first two commandments the people heard at Sinai: 215 + 2 = 217.

Regarding the number of צִיצִית which is supposed to equal the number of Mitzvot:

Rashi "וזכרתם את כל מצות ה'. שֶׁמִּנְיַן גִּימַטְרִיָּא שֶׁל צִיצִית שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת, וּשְׁמוֹנָה חוּטִין וַחֲמִשָּׁה קְשָׁרִים הֲרֵי תרי"ג (תנחומא): You will remember all of Adonoy’s commandments. As the numerical value of צִיצִית is 600, and the eight threads and five knots equal 613."[2]

צִיצִית = 204

plus 8 threads and 5 knots = 217.

You can check the sums on this gematria calculator which uses the correct gematria of the Torah; Shematria

Vilna Gaon in Orot Hagra also disagreed that 613 was the correct number, saying;

It definitely cannot be said that only 613, and no more, come under the category of mitzvot. For if so, there are only three mitzvot from Berei**** until Bo, and many portions of the Torah contain no mitzvot. That is not plausible… The mitzvot are thus multitudinous beyond enumeration… ..." - Are there really 613 Mitzvot? : Gematria​

[7.] Moses specifically said by inspiration of God, that what God spoke and wrote at Mt. Sinai with His own voice and finger from Heaven were "the ten commandments". God came down upon Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty, with the whole mountain covered in the fire of the presence of the Holy Angels of God, so that none but those whom God called up were able to come near.

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu_4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu_10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.​

In each place the Hebrew word "[1697] dabar" is used, as the Ten Commandments are not merely laws or commands, but individual promises of God each that He would perform in those who would walk in His covenant. More on that later as needful.​

[8.] The "ten commandments" that God spake in Person to all the people without the mediator Moses, were a complete Law, nothing further being added unto them, except later as to be written in a scroll/book through a mediator (Moses):

Deu_5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.​

[9.] The "ten commandments" were written by God's own finger originally on sapphire stone and which second set was placed into the "pattern" Ark of the Covenant in the earthly tabernacle (Exodus 25:16,21).

[10.] The other precepts, statutes, laws, commands, ordinances, etc were all given by God through the mediator Moses, to be written by Moses' hand, and placed not inside of the Ark, but to be placed in the side of the Ark:

Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

So, while important, God makes distinction, by several means. The many other things which God gave fall under the umbrella of the Ten Commandments:

Psa_119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.​

and as such '613' probably wouldn't even come close to the depth of God's Ten Commandments, which are the expansion of His perfect character of Love, which itself is expressed in the greatest (Deuteronomy 6:5) and second greatest commandments (Leviticus 19:17-18) (both of whose contexts are the Ten Commandments, see Deut. 5, etc).​

[11.] The '613' enumeration only considers material within the texts of the Torah (Gen-Deut), and not any other material from the Nevi'im or Ketuvim, as if God somehow stopped talking and giving commands through men, priests or prophets or kings, see Isaiah 8:20 (Law and Testimony)

[12.] Even from a basic search of scripture, the Torah itself makes differences between words:

Gen 26:5 KJB Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 26:5 KJB Str. BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451

Gen 26:5 HOT עקב אשׁר־שׁמע אברהם בקלי וישׁמר משׁמרתי מצותי חקותי ותורתי׃

Gen 26:5 HOT Str. עקבH6118 אשׁרH834 שׁמעH8085 אברהםH85 בקליH6963 וישׁמרH8104 משׁמרתיH4931 מצותיH4687 חקותיH2708 ותורתי׃H8451 (apologies for how this posts, not much can be done about that, I used highligher to mark the beginning and ending, so while the sentence reads left to right, each individual word correctly reads right to left)

Gen 26:5 HOT Translit. ëqev ásher-shäma av'rähäm B'qoliy waYish'mor mish'mar'Tiy mitz'wotay chuQôtay w'tôrotäy​

Notice the distinction made between H4687 (mitzvot) and H8451 (torah), which is again found in Exodus 16:28,

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

This should suffice for now.

 

Well, it's interesting that you admit that as that which is called the "Catholic Church" is the actual church of the apostles. Thus, even as John the Apostle was still alive, the Church was already taking steps towards "the Lord's Day" (Sunday) observance as an extension of the "Agape Meal". Even the Wiki article, which is certainly not a Catholic source, showed you that-- but you just blow that off as well.

Simply not true, which can be verified through non-denominational sources. Differing religious groups, using different "bibles" with differing concepts about Jesus and the apostles, taught all sorts of different things, but there is no continuous line of the Church that continued on with the Shabbat observance.

The Baptists have tried to make a similar claim in regards to "believers baptism", but a deacon within that denomination wrote his thesis on this and told me that it really doesn't work because one has to jump from one group after another, and these groups were highly inconsistent in terms of what they actually believed about Jesus, plus they used different "bibles".

So, what your SDA leaders are teaching you on this is merely a fabrication that doesn't make one iota of historical sense.

Also, try using non-SDA sources that you obviously cut & paste from because the SDA has a vested interest in keeping you and others within their ranks.

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of this as I taught Jewish theology for roughly 15 years at the synagogue I used to belong to. With that being said, most within Judaism do use the 613 count.

 

You're using artificial divisions that only exist in abstraction, as any rabbi will tell you that the 613 Commandments exist as is, thus any division of them is just for classification's's sake. If you doubt this, then maybe take this part of the discussion and post a new thread with a question on this in a Judaism DIR forum.

If one actually gets into why Jews were punished by God at times, the common thread is that all too many were not observing the entire Law-- all 613 of them. Even near the end of Isaiah, there's the reference for the need to keep kosher, for example, which is not one of the Ten.

Within Judaism, the 613 Commandments are in reality viewed as an unbroken thread that an observant Jew cannot just pick and choose from in terms of which to follow.

 

Glad I am Bible (KJB) Christian then, and not one of rabbinic/talmudic/kabbalistic judaism (it's not even OT Judaism).

 

Just went through this. No such thing, except in the minds of certain rabbins, who do not agree with one another.

 

You really don't know what you're talking about on this.

If you truly were interested in the Truth, you would do as I recommended, namely go to a Judaism DIR and actually ask them. But clearly you're not.

 

You don't read the 1st 5 books (called Moses) in your bible?

Lev 24:22 You shall have one kind of law, for the foreigner as well as the native-born: for I am the LORD your God.’”

 

Your jesus; the new god eh?

Christians do not believe what is written in the "new testament" even if one shows them.

 

Wow! Properly brain washed.

 

And then they become Israelites not Christians.

 

The Feasts/Holy days of the Creator.
If youd have studied them , they will show you proof.
You are not to keep Heathen feasts like xmas.

 

Nonsense.

 

You have no idea what you are professing, go read ephesians 2


Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones, and of the household of God,

If you are grafted into the Olive-tree(Romans 11); you become an Israelite and not a Christian.

Christians are still heathens(following pagan practices like xmas and eostre)