No doubt it’s a complicated issue. I believe today’s announcement is a good one.
Fina bans trans swimmers from women's elite events - BBC Sport
Fina bans trans swimmers from women's elite events - BBC Sport
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Male-to-Female Transgender Swimmers can Compete IF they Did Not Experience Male Puberty
- Thread starter Watchmen
- Start date
ronki23
Well-Known Member
Great news.
The trans-female argument is that they have not yet won a gold medal against cis-females so it is already fair. But the problem with that argument is they're talking about competing against cis-females of the highest levels: locally and regionally may be another story.
The trans-female argument is that they have not yet won a gold medal against cis-females so it is already fair. But the problem with that argument is they're talking about competing against cis-females of the highest levels: locally and regionally may be another story.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
A few transwomen have won up to national level competitions. World competition not yet though. I would also like to note that transwomen athlete should and could very well win against ciswomen. The issue is if the competition is fair; if their competition had a reasonable chance of winning against them.
You know what I find funny is we always talk about MTF in sports being unfair, and yet I've never heard anyone ***** about FTM...... Wonder why that is.
VoidCat
Pronouns: he/him/they/them
Oh FTM folk don't exist don't you know? This goes for bathrooms and sports./sarcasm
Huh. Learn something new everyday
I won’t pretend to know the ins and outs of this issue.
But this seems a fair compromise, right?
I think. Evens the playing field and allows for less discrimination?
I've made my opinions known on this a little too much to want to do long posts about it. But imo the ruling favors a mythical fairness that doesn't exist in sports. Where it's perfectly fair for people with biological advantages to compete against people who couldn't hope to win against them unless those people are a little too breaking the sacred gender archetypes. (See Caster Semenya, a ciswoman who was also forbidden from play for higher than average natural testosterone, but mutant atheletes like Phelps is a-ok.)
Well sports science isn’t an exact science due to biology being quite “uneven.”
Hopefully that will improve as time goes on and issues regarding testosterone levels and whatnot become more understood.
I agree that it’s rather uneven, even among cis gendered athletes. But society is a “work in progress” right?
Eventually hopefully we can figure it all out. In the mean time, compromises are the best we can hope for
Aštra’el
Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Have you ever competed in sports?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
We are all "mutants" and yes part of Phelps' success is that he is genetically very lucky. The problem is that some sports, not all, would be dominated by transfemale athletes given enough time. This is a new science, as I said on the other thread on this, and there are going to be some growing pains.
I’ve never attained spiritual enlightenment. Does that bar me from speaking my mind on matters pertaining to spiritual matters?
Plenty of folks have opinions on subjects where they have no real life experience in. It’s called discussion
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Certain believers seem to think that they hold a patent on spirituality. Perhaps that is because the conflate a belief in their personal God with spirituality. They do not appear to be the same thing to me at all.
Aštra’el
Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
There are certain insights that can only be derived from direct experience.
Just a clarification that I didn't mean mutant in a mean way. I agree that we're all mutants. Some mutations when giving an advantage are revered, some reviled.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
They have tried to make exceptions for transgender people, People whose bodies say that they are male or female and whose brain (including the wiring for that brain) tell them that they are not. Sexual dimorphism is a real thing and they have tried to fix that problem. Testosterone blocking drugs appear to make it fair in some sports, but not all.
Personally if the natural edge one has from being male can be eliminated I am not against transwomen competing against ciswomen. But in some sports that cannot be done if the change occurred after puberty.
I believe that banning certain sports from the list of those where trans athletes can compete is the best solution right now. That may change in the future but it is still better than forcing people to compete on the basis of their sex and not their gender.
Fair enough. But we humans are a talkative bunch
I know I’ve weighed in on subjects such as classical literature a lot over the years. Am I trained to speak about such a subject? Not at all. In fact I’m a complete idiot on the subject. And yet I can still give my thoughts on it. Uneducated though they may be
It’s the nature of discussion
And for the record I actually have competed in sports events. Nothing that will give me a gold medal or acclaim but I’ve competed. Does that mean I have special insight? Because I sincerely doubt it. At least in my case lol
What sports events have you competed in?
Win any medals? Oh any trophies? I hope they were shiny
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I don’t know if I necessarily agree. There are cis gendered athletes that have a biological edge. That’s just the reality of human biology. There are and have been athletes that just have a biological edge. Not due to sexual dimorphism but due to their own biological makeup. I think Ian Thorpe has a larger lung capacity than normal, thus allowing him to win many many medals in his distinguished career. If this was based purely on biological fairness, he should have been disqualified from the start. Right?
I don’t know if I necessarily agree. There are cis gendered athletes that have a biological edge. That’s just the reality of human biology. There are and have been athletes that just have a biological edge. Not due to sexual dimorphism but due to their own biological makeup. For example I think Ian Thorpe has a larger lung capacity than average, thus allowing him to win many many medals in his distinguished career. If this was based purely on biological fairness, he should have been disqualified from the start. Right?
Aštra’el
Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I am referring to the practice. The training. The sacrifices. The hype, the pep rallies, with everyone there united celebrating the battle to come. The games, the tournaments, the track meets. The glory. The anthems. The sounds of the bands. The scents of athletic equipment, and concession stands. The years spent on the field honing your technique. The years spent in the gym and on the track, increasing your strength, speed, flexibility and endurance. The passion you develop for improving your fitness once you’ve proven what you can achieve, and understand what more you can build up to. The challenges you’ve overcome, mentally and physically. The people you love and hate who you respect regardless because you’ve spilled your blood together and you’ve had each others’ back, and you’ve operated as one to achieve victory. The camaraderie, and the rivalries. The gatherings of people from your city as they show up -whether at home or away- to express their support of everything you’ve trained to do and cheer you on. The sense of pride, when all that training pays off and you achieve victory, time and time again. The pain of loss, and defeat, sometimes soul crushing. The spirit of perseverance. The dreams, the broken dreams, and the dreams fulfilled.
These are things you only truly understand when you have experienced them, directly. If any of this sounds familiar, then yes, you have some “special insights” as well.
I was raised by a football coach, so I competed in every I sport could. My favorite was probably Track, and whenever I medalled it was usually in the 200, 800, Sprint Relay (4x100), and/ or Mile Relay (4x 400). Only issue was, most of those events took place at the very end of the track meet, and quite close together with little rest in between. So I might spend the whole day mostly just chilling until the end, when it becomes one event after another almost nonstop with me giving it 110% every time. I still loved it. I loved everything, every sport I did. Even now, I can’t stay out of the gym for too long. It’s who I am.
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It's a good thing we have scientific knowledge and research on such topics to help clarify them instead of dramatic descriptions and personal anecdotes that have little or nothing to do with systematic study.
People base all kinds of beliefs on personal experience, but without a rigorous, systematic basis like that of science, highly complex and specialized subjects such as the medical ramifications of hormone therapy and its effects on sports performance often can't be reliably studied or learned about in a way that's rigorous enough to base major rules and decisions on.
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