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Male and Female in religions

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Male and female in religion

How balanced are the different religions in respect to the male and female representation?

I grew up in a very Christian background but never understood what I saw as the discrepancy of roles of women and men in tradition Christian beliefs. I saw a magazine on sell labeled women of the bible which reminded me of imbalance of male and female which I felt was present in Christianity was for me when I follower. I have never seen one called men of the bible which is obvious since they have the primary roles. I also could never grasp how Eve would come from Adam. Clearly it should have been Eve giving birth to Adam. And why did the Roman Christian church not include women in equally important.

In contrast to Christianity is what I found in learning about pre-Christian Celtic where there was a much clearer balance of male and female. Although accurate understanding of pre-Christian culture is limited, there is enough to show females played a strong role in pre-Christian Celtic society including being leaders of armies. If Sjoestedt is correct in her analysis as describe in her book “Celtic Gods and Heroes” then Celtic societies had less of a pantheon and more emphasis on the importance of the union of the God and the Goddess. Here we see a representation of the female related to the land and the non-human aspect of nature who must be joined with the Male representing the tribe. Thus. the union of male and female is essential for the prosperity of the tribe. This shows a clear balance of male and female.

Iroquois society was in part at least matriarchal. This places women on just as important role as men. In fact, their creation story has a woman as the creator of humankind on Earth or at least on Turtle Island.

Should the early Christian church have included the gospel according to Mary which suggests that a woman was given the role to continue the teachings of Jesus or at least the gospel according to Phillip which indicates that He was married to Mary. Maybe that would have created a better balance of male and female in Christianity.

So. should there be a balance of male and female in religions? What is the perception of the male and female in other religions?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Male and female in religion

How balanced are the different religions in respect to the male and female representation?

I grew up in a very Christian background but never understood what I saw as the discrepancy of roles of women and men in tradition Christian beliefs. I saw a magazine on sell labeled women of the bible which reminded me of imbalance of male and female which I felt was present in Christianity was for me when I follower. I have never seen one called men of the bible which is obvious since they have the primary roles. I also could never grasp how Eve would come from Adam. Clearly it should have been Eve giving birth to Adam. And why did the Roman Christian church not include women in equally important.

In contrast to Christianity is what I found in learning about pre-Christian Celtic where there was a much clearer balance of male and female. Although accurate understanding of pre-Christian culture is limited, there is enough to show females played a strong role in pre-Christian Celtic society including being leaders of armies. If Sjoestedt is correct in her analysis as describe in her book “Celtic Gods and Heroes” then Celtic societies had less of a pantheon and more emphasis on the importance of the union of the God and the Goddess. Here we see a representation of the female related to the land and the non-human aspect of nature who must be joined with the Male representing the tribe. Thus. the union of male and female is essential for the prosperity of the tribe. This shows a clear balance of male and female.

Iroquois society was in part at least matriarchal. This places women on just as important role as men. In fact, their creation story has a woman as the creator of humankind on Earth or at least on Turtle Island.

Should the early Christian church have included the gospel according to Mary which suggests that a woman was given the role to continue the teachings of Jesus or at least the gospel according to Phillip which indicates that He was married to Mary. Maybe that would have created a better balance of male and female in Christianity.

So. should there be a balance of male and female in religions? What is the perception of the male and female in other religions?

I suppose you don't actually believe in the Gospels. These are the good news that
Christ came to Redeem us to Himself. They are not about equality, solving poverty,
bringing peace or any other issue that non-believers hold in higher esteem.
The Gospels are about Salvation - for there is one true equality in life, and that is
death and the resurrection, according to Jesus anyhow.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Male and female in religion

How balanced are the different religions in respect to the male and female representation?

I grew up in a very Christian background but never understood what I saw as the discrepancy of roles of women and men in tradition Christian beliefs. I saw a magazine on sell labeled women of the bible which reminded me of imbalance of male and female which I felt was present in Christianity was for me when I follower. I have never seen one called men of the bible which is obvious since they have the primary roles. I also could never grasp how Eve would come from Adam. Clearly it should have been Eve giving birth to Adam. And why did the Roman Christian church not include women in equally important.

In contrast to Christianity is what I found in learning about pre-Christian Celtic where there was a much clearer balance of male and female. Although accurate understanding of pre-Christian culture is limited, there is enough to show females played a strong role in pre-Christian Celtic society including being leaders of armies. If Sjoestedt is correct in her analysis as describe in her book “Celtic Gods and Heroes” then Celtic societies had less of a pantheon and more emphasis on the importance of the union of the God and the Goddess. Here we see a representation of the female related to the land and the non-human aspect of nature who must be joined with the Male representing the tribe. Thus. the union of male and female is essential for the prosperity of the tribe. This shows a clear balance of male and female.

Iroquois society was in part at least matriarchal. This places women on just as important role as men. In fact, their creation story has a woman as the creator of humankind on Earth or at least on Turtle Island.

Should the early Christian church have included the gospel according to Mary which suggests that a woman was given the role to continue the teachings of Jesus or at least the gospel according to Phillip which indicates that He was married to Mary. Maybe that would have created a better balance of male and female in Christianity.

So. should there be a balance of male and female in religions? What is the perception of the male and female in other religions?

The Baha’i writings teach the equality of men and women is a fundamental prerequisite for world peace. Humanity is likened to a bird with two wings, one male the other female. Only when both wings are strong the bird flies into the heavenly realm.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Male and female in religion

How balanced are the different religions in respect to the male and female representation?
I have never seen a religion which could manage to treat males and females the same, but we are different. The goal of equality, if achieved perfectly, would take away the differences. Who is willing to do that?

I grew up in a very Christian background but never understood what I saw as the discrepancy of roles of women and men in tradition Christian beliefs. I saw a magazine on sell labeled women of the bible which reminded me of imbalance of male and female which I felt was present in Christianity was for me when I follower. I have never seen one called men of the bible which is obvious since they have the primary roles. I also could never grasp how Eve would come from Adam. Clearly it should have been Eve giving birth to Adam. And why did the Roman Christian church not include women in equally important.
The Bible is written to men, primarily. Men are the ones who make the wars. Men live longer and don't die from childbirth. Its to us first. Men have the responsibility to keep the peace. The Roman Catholic institution is a different subject. The story of Adam and of Eve appears long, long before it.

In contrast to Christianity is what I found in learning about pre-Christian Celtic where there was a much clearer balance of male and female. Although accurate understanding of pre-Christian culture is limited, there is enough to show females played a strong role in pre-Christian Celtic society including being leaders of armies. If Sjoestedt is correct in her analysis as describe in her book “Celtic Gods and Heroes” then Celtic societies had less of a pantheon and more emphasis on the importance of the union of the God and the Goddess. Here we see a representation of the female related to the land and the non-human aspect of nature who must be joined with the Male representing the tribe. Thus. the union of male and female is essential for the prosperity of the tribe. This shows a clear balance of male and female.
If there is any good then its appropriate to learn from it. I don't think I have any familiarity with Celts. You know, just having a god and a goddess doesn't mean women get treated equally, and having Adam come first in a story doesn't mean the opposite. So there is a difference between having a story and having a balance.

Iroquois society was in part at least matriarchal. This places women on just as important role as men. In fact, their creation story has a woman as the creator of humankind on Earth or at least on Turtle Island.
I heard that the women did all the hard work, and the men played and hunted. Is that what matriarchy meant? I'm just pointing out that men and women still were not treated the same. They were not the same, and they couldn't be the same.

Should the early Christian church have included the gospel according to Mary which suggests that a woman was given the role to continue the teachings of Jesus or at least the gospel according to Phillip which indicates that He was married to Mary. Maybe that would have created a better balance of male and female in Christianity.

So. should there be a balance of male and female in religions? What is the perception of the male and female in other religions?
Yes, probably or something like it; but the real problems are much greater than male/female division and cannot be solved this way I think. There is a strong movement to prevent women from leading in the church. Its not clear if this is a change or part of the first baptism.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I gotta say males and females are equal, with a common nature, and also a totally different nature. Equality does not mean we are all the same. I certainly dont think equality means sameness.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
So. should there be a balance of male and female in religions? What is the perception of the male and female in other religions?

Religion is one thing. Spiritual figures like Ramakrishna is another. Ramarkishna worshipped the divine Mother, for example. Rabia of Basra was a noted Islamic Sufi woman. There are various female Catholic saints.

This shows that in spite of the patriarchal societies of recorded history, women have achieved spiritual greatness. What is changing now is the societal balance between men and women. Institutions including religious ones are reflecting the deeply rooted rebalancing of the genders.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@Wild Fox While you are correct in saying that the scriptures of many traditional religions are reflective of the patriarchal values in which they were conceived, your surprisingly positive appraisal of ancient Celtic gender relations is unfortunately inaccurate.

In fact, the very limited literary and archaeological evidence we have tells us that Celtic women were not permitted to serve as witnesses in court and could not make contracts without the oversight of a man. Compensation for women (or their heirs in the event of their death) was half the cost for a man of the same status.

Men acted as the legal guardians and managers of women's affairs throughout their lives. A woman remained under the authority firstly of her father, then of her husband, and, if she was widowed, her son. Inheritance laws mandated that she couldn't make a will unless her male guardian approved.

Ancient Celtic women - Wikipedia


Men had the power of life and death over their wives, as they did over their children, in a similar manner to the Roman pater familias. If the head of a high ranking family died, his relatives would gather and interrogate the wives as well as the slaves, when the death seemed suspicious. Should they consider their suspicions to be correct, they would burn the wives, after torturing them in every possible way. However, he also describes the financial role of the wive as remarkably self-sufficient.[51]

Adultery by the wife, unlike adultery by the husband, could not be atoned for with a fine. A divorce in the case of adultery could only occur with the agreement of both parties and the wife was not permitted to seek one so long as her husband maintained intimate relations with her.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Baha’i writings teach the equality of men and women is a fundamental prerequisite for world peace. Humanity is likened to a bird with two wings, one male the other female. Only when both wings are strong the bird flies into the heavenly realm.

Just so readers know, the head administrative body in the Baha'i faith is limited to men.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
When the documents making up the bible were written all those centuries ago the female of the species was considered to be subservient to the male and a chattel. Nowadays in western countries women are generally treated as equal to the male, although of course there are some exceptions. If the Biblical authors lived in modern times, maybe their idea of women's role in society would be very different, god might even be female, SHOCK, HORROR!:D

I wrote this a while back I hope it makes you smile.

  1. Heaven


St Peter was showing a bunch of new recruits the delights of heaven. There were things to suit all tastes, even a gay bar. Most popular were the wine tasting sessions, which Jesus had set up, he was particularly proud of his Chateau Heaven vintage, being of course an expert in viticulture.

A carriage, pulled by eight white horses, stopped beside the group, and out got the most beautiful woman they had ever seen. St Peter bowed low and introduced her, "This is God"! The recruits gasped, "Don't worry, you will soon get used to the idea", she grinned!

At the end of the tour the recruits were shown a tin shack from which emanated the sound of hoarse discordant singing. St Peter explained, " That is reserved for 'born again' Christians who think they are the only inhabitants of heaven, we don't like to disappoint them so they can sing God's praises for all eternity. One puzzled new arrival queried how they reacted to God being a woman. "Ah" said St Peter, "Now that is our very cunning plan. Not everyone can enter into the delights of heaven immediately if they have been very bad whilst on earth. They must serve a term playing God for the 'born agains’, the length of which depends on the wickedness of their crimes. As the actor is always hidden in a blaze of light, they are none the wiser when a change over takes place. However heinous the crime, the perpetrator is deemed to have served their sentence after a few Millennia of listening to that lot 'singing God's praises!"

RJG
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
A major function of religions is to articulate the worldview of a person or culture. That includes an articulation of human identity - what it is and what it means. What we in our culture call "male" and "female" may be a component of that, though it may not be understood in this binary or in ways that are analogous to how we think about these terms as a culture. One way or another, religion must address issues of human identity.

Contemporary Paganism arose in no small part as a countercultural movement. In general, it continues that sentiment when it comes to Western notions of "male" and "female." As such, you'll find a good chunk of folks in these communities who question Western narratives about this alleged binary. The Western narratives are powerful, though, so I can't say that there aren't conservative voices on these things within contemporary Paganism. You'll see everything represented within the movement from rigidly defined binary roles to outright negation of that binary entirely. And it can (and does) cause conflicts within the community.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Reconstructionists like me try to be gender-neutral. The cultures to which we look were often patriarchal, but not so much in religion. In Ancient Greece, most women had a male guardian, but priestesses were independent and treated with considerable honour. There were a few men-only shrines (of Herakles, for example) but many women-only ceremonies.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
@Wild Fox While you are correct in saying that the scriptures of many traditional religions are reflective of the patriarchal values in which they were conceived, your surprisingly positive appraisal of ancient Celtic gender relations is unfortunately inaccurate.

In fact, the very limited literary and archaeological evidence we have tells us that Celtic women were not permitted to serve as witnesses in court and could not make contracts without the oversight of a man. Compensation for women (or their heirs in the event of their death) was half the cost for a man of the same status.

Men acted as the legal guardians and managers of women's affairs throughout their lives. A woman remained under the authority firstly of her father, then of her husband, and, if she was widowed, her son. Inheritance laws mandated that she couldn't make a will unless her male guardian approved.

Ancient Celtic women - Wikipedia


Men had the power of life and death over their wives, as they did over their children, in a similar manner to the Roman pater familias. If the head of a high ranking family died, his relatives would gather and interrogate the wives as well as the slaves, when the death seemed suspicious. Should they consider their suspicions to be correct, they would burn the wives, after torturing them in every possible way. However, he also describes the financial role of the wive as remarkably self-sufficient.[51]

Adultery by the wife, unlike adultery by the husband, could not be atoned for with a fine. A divorce in the case of adultery could only occur with the agreement of both parties and the wife was not permitted to seek one so long as her husband maintained intimate relations with her.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
@Wild Fox While you are correct in saying that the scriptures of many traditional religions are reflective of the patriarchal values in which they were conceived, your surprisingly positive appraisal of ancient Celtic gender relations is unfortunately inaccurate.

In fact, the very limited literary and archaeological evidence we have tells us that Celtic women were not permitted to serve as witnesses in court and could not make contracts without the oversight of a man. Compensation for women (or their heirs in the event of their death) was half the cost for a man of the same status.

Men acted as the legal guardians and managers of women's affairs throughout their lives. A woman remained under the authority firstly of her father, then of her husband, and, if she was widowed, her son. Inheritance laws mandated that she couldn't make a will unless her male guardian approved.

Ancient Celtic women - Wikipedia


Men had the power of life and death over their wives, as they did over their children, in a similar manner to the Roman pater familias. If the head of a high ranking family died, his relatives would gather and interrogate the wives as well as the slaves, when the death seemed suspicious. Should they consider their suspicions to be correct, they would burn the wives, after torturing them in every possible way. However, he also describes the financial role of the wive as remarkably self-sufficient.[51]

Adultery by the wife, unlike adultery by the husband, could not be atoned for with a fine. A divorce in the case of adultery could only occur with the agreement of both parties and the wife was not permitted to seek one so long as her husband maintained intimate relations with her.
My reference to pre-Christian Celtic beliefs was mainly directed to religion. Here both male and female were equally important and their union was essential for the tribe to be successful. The known gods and goddesses we are aware of came from a woman - Anu. In the mythology the celtic people would never have been able to reach Ireland until a female goddess allowed them to and as long as they named the land after her thus the country of Eire. The myths contain clearly females equal to males in importance.
Yes the Celtic societies were patriarchal but women could clearly become leader as seen in the uprising against Rome. We do not have great information on the rights of women in pre-Christian Celtic society but there are statements from outsiders that give some reflection that they played a stronger role than their counterparts of Greece and Rome.

Strabo wrote about celtic religious women who live on an island near Loir River.

Historia Augusta describes that Diocletian, Alexander Severus and Aurelian had discussed problems with the female Druids.

Caesar had reference that he was aware of female Druids.

Tacitus: "armies on the point of collapse have been rallied by their women pleading with their men, thrusting forward their bared breasts, and making them realize the imminent prospect of enslavement."

"the victorious Romans were confronted by women in black robes who stood at their wagons and slew the fleeing warriors - their husbands, brothers or fathers - and then strangled their own children and cast them beneath the wheels of their wagons before cutting their own throats."



Plutarch: "here the women met them holding swords and axes in their hands. With hideous shrieks of rage they tried to drive back the hunted and the hunters. The fugitives as deserters, the pursuers as foes. With bare hands the women tore away the shields of the Romans or grasped their swords, enduring mutilating wounds."

Diodorus Siculus: "The women of the Gauls are not only like men in their great stature, but they are a match for them in courage as well."

The "Caid Adamnan" an Old-Irish Treatise on the Law of Adamnan (c.697AD) which was written by St. Adamnan of Iona had a reference to women.

“The work which the best women had to do, was to go to battle and battlefield, encounter and camping, fighting and hosting, wounding and slaying. On one side of her she would carry her bag of provisions, on the other her babe. Her wooden pole upon her back. Thirty feet long it was, and had on one end an iron hook, which she would thrust into the tress of some woman in the opposite battalion. Her husband behind her, carrying a fence-stake in his hand, and flogging her on to battle. For at that time it was the head of a woman, or her two breasts, which were taken as trophies.”

The accuracy maybe questioned but the theme of strong female presence seems to have been observed enough to recognize that male and female was respected and as can be determined by what myths we have they are the other half of the world. Male the tribal - Female the land and in union success for the tribe. Thus religiously male and female are both essential features.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I suppose you don't actually believe in the Gospels. These are the good news that
Christ came to Redeem us to Himself. They are not about equality, solving poverty,
bringing peace or any other issue that non-believers hold in higher esteem.
The Gospels are about Salvation - for there is one true equality in life, and that is
death and the resurrection, according to Jesus anyhow.
Whether I believe or do not believe in the gospel is not the question. It is the representation of male and female in religions that is the question.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I have never seen a religion which could manage to treat males and females the same, but we are different. The goal of equality, if achieved perfectly, would take away the differences. Who is willing to do that?

The Bible is written to men, primarily. Men are the ones who make the wars. Men live longer and don't die from childbirth. Its to us first. Men have the responsibility to keep the peace. The Roman Catholic institution is a different subject. The story of Adam and of Eve appears long, long before it.


If there is any good then its appropriate to learn from it. I don't think I have any familiarity with Celts. You know, just having a god and a goddess doesn't mean women get treated equally, and having Adam come first in a story doesn't mean the opposite. So there is a difference between having a story and having a balance.


I heard that the women did all the hard work, and the men played and hunted. Is that what matriarchy meant? I'm just pointing out that men and women still were not treated the same. They were not the same, and they couldn't be the same.

Yes, probably or something like it; but the real problems are much greater than male/female division and cannot be solved this way I think. There is a strong movement to prevent women from leading in the church. Its not clear if this is a change or part of the first baptism.

As for the Iroquois the women had the ultimate say of the Chief. That places them in a strong role of rule. As for their work there were deference's but as to which work was harder I could not say. Their creation story places a woman at the center with men derived from there so religiously women hold a much higher position than in genesis where they were born from a rib of Adam then lost Eden for everyone. This is a sharp contrast.
 
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