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Made in the Image

Eric Hyom

Member
And where does the evil one come from?

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
Jesus died for you , me and everyone else. That must mean that Jesus loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself. We are all created as children of God, and in his nature, image and likeness.

We are given the greatest commandments, to love God and to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. If we could do this, there would be no evil. We have the freedom to obey these commandments, or not. When we go against the nature and image of God's greatest love, evil happens.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it that God is the author of destiny, or is it that our souls belong to God, and we are collectively responsible for it ourselves?

Hindu belief, for the most part though there are exceptions, does not hold that God assigns, controls, modifies, mitigates, etc. destiny or fate. That is all under the laws of karma. Karma is not just "paybacks are a *****" as commonly believed. If someone cuts you off on the road people say karma will get him. Then when he slams into a telephone pole, people will say karma got him. Not necessarily so. It is far more intricate than that. Karma probably had nothing to do with it, the driver was just stupid and reckless ... "**** happens", y'know? :shrug:

As for our souls belonging to God, we don't believe that. At least not the way people think of belonging, or being "owned". The verses I quoted earlier are from a Vaishnava scripture (devotees of Vishnu, especially of Krishna), other sects of Hinduism largely hold the same beliefs. The soul was never created, it has always existed, it will never not exist, because it is a portion of God. God does not create or destroy souls because our souls are God.

There is at least one philosophical school (Dvaita, meaning duality) that believes much the same as the Abrahamic religions, that souls and God are separate. But the majority of Hindu philosophical schools believe that God and the soul are one. We say that God dwells within us, but the philosophy called Advaita (meaning non-dual) says our soul is God. The philosophy I subscribe to is slightly modified from that. It's somewhere between Dvaita and Advaita, called Vishishtadvaita meaning "oneness with qualifications". It can get complicated and mind-boggllng. My practice is simply bhakti marga, "path of devotion". I leave the philosophy to others smarter than me.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
To be infinite we would have to be everything God is.
No. God is all. We're just a corpuscle. This why Jesus said the Father is greater. You contradict yourself or prove with every post that you are confused. But dualist generally are in conflict, contradiction
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That's not about God creating evil. Read it in about literally every other translation.
NIV:
“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster.” Similarly, the New Living Translation offers, “I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times.”

God didn't create evil but he allowed it.
Well..... Christian translations are going to be biased to Christian theology. If you go back to the original text it most definitely says God creates evil. Not something I like, but, that's what it says.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Well..... Christian translations are going to be biased to Christian theology. If you go back to the original text it most definitely says God creates evil. Not something I like, but, that's what it says.
..but that does not mean that we have to understand everything in a literal fashion.

Almighty God creating evil, does not mean that He is of evil intent Himself, now does it? :)
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Well..... Christian translations are going to be biased to Christian theology. If you go back to the original text it most definitely says God creates evil. Not something I like, but, that's what it says.
Really? Can you read Hebrew and Greek?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Really? Can you read Hebrew and Greek?
Read Hebrew? yes. My Hebrew comprehension is so/so. I can recognize words and phrases. Famous words and phrases I know pretty well. My Hebrew grammar is very very weak. I can't read Greek though.

The verse in question, beleive it or not, is part of Jewish liturgy ( with minor modification in conservative and orthodox, not sure about reform ), so, that one I know by heart in Hebrew, having recited it... I mean... thousands of times now in my life.

Yotzer ohr - Wikipedia.

I know the words for "create" and "evil" very well not just from the "yotzer or", but because they occur in the Genesis story and I've also studied that 100s of times.

---------------------------------------------------

It's actually pretty easy to see that Isaiah is saying "I create evil" literally.

When does evil make its first appearance? In the garden! What's the name of the famous tree with the forbidden fruit? "The tree of knowledge of good and evil".

Here it is in Hebrew:

וַיַּצְמַח יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהִים מִן־הָאֲדָמָה כָּל־עֵץ נֶחְמָד לְמַרְאֶה וְטוֹב לְמַֽאֲכָל וְעֵץ הַֽחַיִּים בְּתוֹךְ הַגָּן וְעֵץ הַדַּעַת טוֹב וָרָֽע׃

And out of the ground made the Lord God every tree to grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

רָֽע = "evil"
Here's Isaiah 45:7

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord make all these things.

רָֽע = "evil"
Knowledge of good and evil = דַּעַת טוֹב וָרָֽע ( Genesis 2:9 )
Make peace and create evil
= עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע ( Isaiah 45:7 )

So that's "evil". The word for "create" is a little bit more difficult to recognize. But it's not too bad.

When does "create" make its first appearance? At the beginning! Here it is:

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

בָּרָא = "created" ( past tense )
Here is Isaiah 45:7 again:

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּ
בוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord make all these things.

בוֹרֵא = "create" ( present tense )
In the beginning God created = בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים ( Genesis 1:1 )
Make peace and create evil = עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא ( Isaiah 45:7 )

Like I said, this one is a little more difficult to see, because of Hebrew grammar. Basically Hebrew words are contructed on 3 or 4 letter roots. Then those roots are modified / conjugated. The 3 letter root for "create" is "ב-ר-א" ( Klein Dictionary, ברא ᴵ 1 ). In Genesis 1:1, that's precisely how it is written: "בָּרָא". In Isaiah, it's present tense singular, but the root is still visible: "בוֹרֵא".

---------------------------------------------------

So there it is: Isaiah 45:7 literally says "
בוֹרֵא רָע" "create evil".
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"God is love" theme is the crux of Christianity.
"God is love" is not contradicted by the verse in Isaiah. Light is "formed". Formed from what? From God's own being, from Godliness. Darkness and evil were "created", something from nothing, completely seperate and distinct from God.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
It makes sense that they would blame humans and Satan for all the evil in the world rather than their God. It's negative PR for evangelism if Christians admit that God creates evil.
Mere words..
Almighty God is responsible for all that we see..

The fact that God creates poisonous plants, and men capable of evil, does not make God of evil intent .. it is part of the test that He has ordained for us.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
does not make God of evil intent
Yes!!!! Thank you for saying this. Can good exist without evil? Darkness without light? As soon as God "saw it was good", evil was created. Evil was not the intention. Good was the intention, and evil happened automatically.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Read Hebrew? yes. My Hebrew comprehension is so/so. I can recognize words and phrases. Famous words and phrases I know pretty well. My Hebrew grammar is very very weak. I can't read Greek though.

The verse in question, beleive it or not, is part of Jewish liturgy ( with minor modification in conservative and orthodox, not sure about reform ), so, that one I know by heart in Hebrew, having recited it... I mean... thousands of times now in my life.

Yotzer ohr - Wikipedia.

I know the words for "create" and "evil" very well not just from the "yotzer or", but because they occur in the Genesis story and I've also studied that 100s of times.

---------------------------------------------------

It's actually pretty easy to see that Isaiah is saying "I create evil" literally.

When does evil make its first appearance? In the garden! What's the name of the famous tree with the forbidden fruit? "The tree of knowledge of good and evil".

Here it is in Hebrew:

וַיַּצְמַח יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהִים מִן־הָאֲדָמָה כָּל־עֵץ נֶחְמָד לְמַרְאֶה וְטוֹב לְמַֽאֲכָל וְעֵץ הַֽחַיִּים בְּתוֹךְ הַגָּן וְעֵץ הַדַּעַת טוֹב וָרָֽע׃

And out of the ground made the Lord God every tree to grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

רָֽע = "evil"
Here's Isaiah 45:7

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord make all these things.

רָֽע = "evil"
Knowledge of good and evil = דַּעַת טוֹב וָרָֽע ( Genesis 2:9 )
Make peace and create evil
= עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע ( Isaiah 45:7 )

So that's "evil". The word for "create" is a little bit more difficult to recognize. But it's not too bad.

When does "create" make its first appearance? At the beginning! Here it is:

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

בָּרָא = "created" ( past tense )
Here is Isaiah 45:7 again:

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּ
בוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord make all these things.

בוֹרֵא = "create" ( present tense )
In the beginning God created = בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים ( Genesis 1:1 )
Make peace and create evil = עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא ( Isaiah 45:7 )

Like I said, this one is a little more difficult to see, because of Hebrew grammar. Basically Hebrew words are contructed on 3 or 4 letter roots. Then those roots are modified / conjugated. The 3 letter root for "create" is "ב-ר-א" ( Klein Dictionary, ברא ᴵ 1 ). In Genesis 1:1, that's precisely how it is written: "בָּרָא". In Isaiah, it's present tense singular, but the root is still visible: "בוֹרֵא".

---------------------------------------------------

So there it is: Isaiah 45:7 literally says "
בוֹרֵא רָע" "create evil".
Have you considered the context that the verse is used in in Isaiah? He's saying that he's bringing judgment on nations, not that he originally created evil.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Have you considered the context that the verse is used in in Isaiah? He's saying that he's bringing judgment on nations, not that he originally created evil.
Well, yes, I did consider it.

God is encouraging Cyrus. If you were Cyrus, and a god came to you, a god you didn't know ( verse 4 ), wouldn't you be concerned that another god, one of the patrons of the other nations, would retaliate?

So what does God do? He tells Cyrus 5 times that there is no other god. ( verses 5, 6, 14, 18, 22 ). This message repeated and intermixed through the chapter indicates its importance. Immediately following this assertion in verses 5 and 6 comes verse 7 which proclaims that God created everything, all things including evil.

So God is both encouraging Cyrus and making an introduction. God is the absolute sole creator, there is none other, and don't worry about retaliation from any other god, God created evil and has authority to inflict evil against the other nations. No other god will inflict evil as a result of following God's directive.
 

Sgt. Pepper

Well-Known Member
Which God am I made in the image of? Not YHWH for sure.

I don't believe we were created in the image of the biblical God either, primarily because much of humanity has proven themselves to be far more moral than the biblical God, especially how he is portrayed in the Old Testament. This is why, in my opinion, we should never derive our understanding of morality or our understanding of love, mercy, and peace from the Bible. The biblical God, in my opinion, is similar to a narcissistic and abusive parent who only loves their children when they obey and do exactly what they're told to do, but if their children disobey or make them angry, then there'll be hell to pay. It isn't a relationship based on unconditional love.
 
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